Why would he cry - a stable (or any kind of shed) is a super place to have a baby with your partner present, no smart-arse gynecologists who are both male and younger than you, no bright lights ...
@Nick Tamen beat me to it - I take the "Away" as something put away in a safe or appropriate place, and as there was no crib the manger fitted the bill. Of course, it works better with inanimate objects as it sounds a bit as though the baby Jesus is tidied away in the cutlery drawer. And just because he didn't cry once when the cattle were lowing it doesn't mean he didn't cry at other times.
I actually love "In the Bleak Midwinter". I know it wasn't winter and there was no frosty wind but I can make it work if I think of it metaphorically; winter like Narnia in people's hearts until we give him our hearts. Or something like that.
We sang various things at Vespers over the weekend, but one that stands out in particular was the Great Antiphon for the feast, which I used as the basis for my homily (taking a step out of my usual practice of using the Gospel of the day as a foundation).
Today is the beginning of our salvation
and the manifestation of the eternal mystery:
the Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin
and Gabriel announces grace.
So with him let us also cry to the Mother of God:
'Rejoice, O Full of Grace! The Lord is with you.'
My husband has a couple of songs he can sing as a soloist in church, and I'd like him to add By cool Siloam's shady rill to his repertoire because all the over 80 ladies (i.e. a large chunk of the congregation) would love it.
It’s a prayer for grace, and here’s a stab at the meaning, having brutally hacked the poetry out of it
The child who is raised in the way of divine wisdom (cf Prov 3.17) and who is gently encouraged in faith is like the sweetness of a rose or a lily. But just as the lily or the rose fades so life’s challenges can mar that. So Jesus, you who as a child were found in the temple, and were tempted as we are yet without sin, by your grace, on which we wholly depend, keep us as yours.
I think it’s probably undergirded by a rather sentimental view of childhood, but it does avoid asserting the “innocence” of children. Generally, I’m not very fond of “a child is like a precious flower” language. I suspect part of the appeal is in the tune - a musicologist might be able to say why.
I think it’s probably undergirded by a rather sentimental view of childhood, but it does avoid asserting the “innocence” of children. Generally, I’m not very fond of “a child is like a precious flower” language. I suspect part of the appeal is in the tune - a musicologist might be able to say why.
Belmont is a particularly sentimental tune. It can be used instead of Crimond (not sure that would be an improvement.) It appeals to this musician not one bit, with its falling phrases that invite singers to go flat and octave leaps that invite a communal slide up the scale. Its the sort of tune that a slightly drunk club singer would love to get their tonsils round. RCs sing a different set of words "O Lord accept my heart this day." Dreadful simpering stuff.
Why would he cry - a stable (or any kind of shed) is a super place to have a baby with your partner present, no smart-arse gynecologists who are both male and younger than you, no bright lights ...
Would an observant Jewish husband have been present? I wonder. Bet the attending women would have done the honours ( ritual uncleanliness & all that)
Belmont is a particularly sentimental tune. It can be used instead of Crimond (not sure that would be an improvement.) It appeals to this musician not one bit, with its falling phrases that invite singers to go flat and octave leaps that invite a communal slide up the scale. Its the sort of tune that a slightly drunk club singer would love to get their tonsils round. RCs sing a different set of words "O Lord accept my heart this day." Dreadful simpering stuff.
Am I the only one to be thinking of the Glasgow Orpheus Choir, both for "Crimond" and "Siloam's shady rill"?
It’s a prayer for grace, and here’s a stab at the meaning, having brutally hacked the poetry out of it
The child who is raised in the way of divine wisdom (cf Prov 3.17) and who is gently encouraged in faith is like the sweetness of a rose or a lily. But just as the lily or the rose fades so life’s challenges can mar that. So Jesus, you who as a child were found in the temple, and were tempted as we are yet without sin, by your grace, on which we wholly depend, keep us as yours.
Isn't there a clearer way of expressing it though? I doubt that the words were comprehensible by anyone unless they had a pretty broad education - which was denied to most at the time of writing.
Why would he cry - a stable (or any kind of shed) is a super place to have a baby with your partner present, no smart-arse gynecologists who are both male and younger than you, no bright lights ...
Would an observant Jewish husband have been present? I wonder. Bet the attending women would have done the honours ( ritual uncleanliness & all that)
Well, it's ok as long as he does not actually touch her. (Or anything with blood on it)
Though he can "touch her aura" which is a bit "woo" and energetic for the year 0 (CE/AD), but works in our contemporary world
[By the way, I've been intrigued for years about this "independent birth" scenario]
It’s a prayer for grace, and here’s a stab at the meaning, having brutally hacked the poetry out of it
The child who is raised in the way of divine wisdom (cf Prov 3.17) and who is gently encouraged in faith is like the sweetness of a rose or a lily. But just as the lily or the rose fades so life’s challenges can mar that. So Jesus, you who as a child were found in the temple, and were tempted as we are yet without sin, by your grace, on which we wholly depend, keep us as yours.
Isn't there a clearer way of expressing it though? I doubt that the words were comprehensible by anyone unless they had a pretty broad education - which was denied to most at the time of writing.
It's hardly vernacular English now or then
Rather than derail this thread, I've started a new thread on this hymn in case anyone is interested to pursue the discussion.
Lovely to attend Christmas Eve Midnight Communion in person (it was also live streamed by our church).
Joy To The World
Silent Night
Immanuel (Stuart Townend)
It Came Upon The Midnight Clear
O Little Town Of Bethlehem
O Come All Ye Faithful - after midnight, so we get to sing that last verse!
By the time I finished putting together our 9 lessons and carols (wholly online as a precaution) I'd been at it about 6 hours straight and I'm not sure I can even remember all the music. We definitely had:
Once in royal
It came upon the midnight clear
Of the Father's love begotten
The God of Abraham praise
When he comes (which I had to input to musescore by hand, and modify because of course being relatively modern the score as written is far from the song as sung. I like the song but sheesh)
O come, o come, Emmanuel
The angel Gabriel from heaven came
The first noel
Hark the herald
What child is this
O come all ye faithful
I was particularly pleased with The God of Abraham praise in 4 part harmony.
Today's morning Mass at Our Place included that well-known carol Happy Birthday To You, sung in front of the *Happy Birthday, Jesus* cake which was placed in front of the crib scene...
This morning:
Come and join the celebration
The bells ring out
See him lying on a bed of straw
When God from heaven to earth came down (goes to "I saw three ships")
Hark! The herald angels sing.
Today's morning Mass at Our Place included that well-known carol Happy Birthday To You, sung in front of the *Happy Birthday, Jesus* cake which was placed in front of the crib scene...
I kid you not.
As a teen-ager, I remember our youth group walking round the village with a "Happy Birthday Jesus" banner one Christmas day.
Belmont is a particularly sentimental tune. It can be used instead of Crimond (not sure that would be an improvement.) It appeals to this musician not one bit, with its falling phrases that invite singers to go flat and octave leaps that invite a communal slide up the scale. Its the sort of tune that a slightly drunk club singer would love to get their tonsils round. RCs sing a different set of words "O Lord accept my heart this day." Dreadful simpering stuff.
Am I the only one to be thinking of the Glasgow Orpheus Choir, both for "Crimond" and "Siloam's shady rill"?
Today's morning Mass at Our Place included that well-known carol Happy Birthday To You, sung in front of the *Happy Birthday, Jesus* cake which was placed in front of the crib scene...
I kid you not.
We had Happy Birthday to Jesus at the kiddies Mass.
At the 4:00 service yesterday (Christmas Eve), we had:
Angels We Have Heard on High
Infant Holy, Infant Lowly
O Little Town of Bethlehem (ST. LOUIS) Silent Night
Joy to the World
At the 8:00 service we had:
O Come All Ye Faithful (without the last verse) Hark! The Herald Angels Sing
Once in Royal David’s City
Blest Be the God of Israel (The Song of Zachariah) (MERLE’S TUNE) Where Shepherds Lately Knelt (MANGER SONG) Love Has Come (BRING A TORCH) In the Bleak Midwinter
Silent Night
The First Nowell
I was singing in the choir for both services, which were a change from our past 5:00 and 11:00 times.
Christmas Eve Setting
Ireland in C (S, B & A-D) Hymns/Carols
It came upon the midnight clear - tune by Sullivan
Behold, the great Creator makes This Endris night
O little town of Bethlehem Forest Green
Hark! The herald angels sing Mendelssohn
The Choir sang The Coventry Carol and Malcolm Williamson's arrangement of Ding dong! Merrily on high
Christmas morning Setting
Darke in F Hymns/Carols
Christians awake! Yorkshire
Behold, the great Creator makes This Endris night
O come, all ye faithful Adeste fidelis
God rest you merry, gentlemen
The Choir sang O little one sweet and Parry's Welcome, Yule! at communion.
I think that the short time is a major part of the reasoning. Unfortunately the message has not got through to all.
We did sing the Dudman setting yesterday. I know that some people are less than kind about it, but it has three great advantages: it was written for the APBA 2nd Order; it is within the range and ability of most congregations; and we find it pleasant. I think that behind much of the criticism is that is has those qualities.
I think that the short time is a major part of the reasoning. Unfortunately the message has not got through to all.
We did sing the Dudman setting yesterday. I know that some people are less than kind about it, but it has three great advantages: it was written for the APBA 2nd Order; it is within the range and ability of most congregations; and we find it pleasant. I think that behind much of the criticism is that is has those qualities.
A previous parish priest was well-acquainted with the composer, who had a taste for the grog. According to Father WS, the deadline for the completion of the setting was fast approaching, little progress having been made. Casting around for inspiration, Michael Dudman settled upon the tune for Three Blind Mice. The setting is alleged to be a series of variations thereon. Maybe that is the source of its approachability.
Our place normally has three services on a Sunday but, in anticipation of reduced numbers, we held one midmorning combined service. We sang from The Bethlehem Carol Sheet
O Little Town of Bethlehem
God Rest you Merry, Gentlemen As we stood to sing, the organist asked the minister if we were singing all 7 verses. After admitting to a lack of preparation, a straw poll of the congregation decided we would do "the full monty"!
Silent Night, Holy Night
Angels From the Realms of Glory
Carols until Epiphany, at least, and arguably a smattering until Candlemas, seem fine to me.
Yes, I really can't understand the doctrinaire rulings on when carols can and can't be sung - who has decreed this? Also, visitors to church in (say) the week or so before Christmas will expect carols and be disappointed and puzzled if there aren't any.
It reminds me of when @Foaming Draught and @Clarence were somewhat holier than Kuruman and me, and snuck off for a late January service at the Conglomerated Church in Twizel ... and were somewhat surprised as I recall by the themes and the hymnody ...
Oh never mind. Had to be there really. But it was a little surprising.
Carols until Epiphany, at least, and arguably a smattering until Candlemas, seem fine to me.
Same here—at least the Epiphany part. It is still,Christmas, after all. (Candlemas would be all but unknown to folks in my tribe, and would, I think, be unfamiliar overall save to the most liturgically geeky Episcopalians/Anglicans or Catholics.) But I’ve never heard the suggestions that there should be no carols after Christmas night.
Today, we had:
On This Day Earth Shall Ring/PERSONENT HODIE It Came upon the Midnight Clear
Lord, Bid Your Servant Go in Peace (The Song of Simeon)/LAND OF REST Before the Marvel of this Night/MARVEL Go Tell It on the Mountain
Same here—at least the Epiphany part. It is still,Christmas, after all. (Candlemas would be all but unknown to folks in my tribe, and would, I think, be unfamiliar overall save to the most liturgically geeky Episcopalians/Anglicans or Catholics.)
I grew up with Candlemas, but the Kirk has it as the Presentation of Christ at the Temple (or words to that effect) in the Book of Common Order, though I still got some *looks* when I mentioned it in a Session meeting. I mention it only because it marks the end of the season of Epiphany in the RCL, and is in some sense the "official" end of Christmas in the western church.
Same here—at least the Epiphany part. It is still,Christmas, after all. (Candlemas would be all but unknown to folks in my tribe, and would, I think, be unfamiliar overall save to the most liturgically geeky Episcopalians/Anglicans or Catholics.)
I grew up with Candlemas, but the Kirk has it as the Presentation of Christ at the Temple (or words to that effect) in the Book of Common Order, though I still got some *looks* when I mentioned it in a Session meeting. I mention it only because it marks the end of the season of Epiphany in the RCL, and is in some sense the "official" end of Christmas in the western church.
In the Western Orthodox calendar the 2nd of February is called the feast of the Holy Encounter. The Eastern Orthodox call it the Encounter of the Lord, although most English-language liturgical books offer the much more pedestrian translation: The Meeting of the Lord.
Same here—at least the Epiphany part. It is still,Christmas, after all. (Candlemas would be all but unknown to folks in my tribe, and would, I think, be unfamiliar overall save to the most liturgically geeky Episcopalians/Anglicans or Catholics.)
I grew up with Candlemas, but the Kirk has it as the Presentation of Christ at the Temple (or words to that effect) in the Book of Common Order, though I still got some *looks* when I mentioned it in a Session meeting. I mention it only because it marks the end of the season of Epiphany in the RCL, and is in some sense the "official" end of Christmas in the western church.
It reminds me of when @Foaming Draught and @Clarence were somewhat holier than Kuruman and me, and snuck off for a late January service at the Conglomerated Church in Twizel ... and were somewhat surprised as I recall by the themes and the hymnody ...
Oh never mind. Had to be there really. But it was a little surprising.
Don’t remind me. It’s the only service I’ve left before it ended.🙄
Same here—at least the Epiphany part. It is still,Christmas, after all. (Candlemas would be all but unknown to folks in my tribe, and would, I think, be unfamiliar overall save to the most liturgically geeky Episcopalians/Anglicans or Catholics.)
I grew up with Candlemas, but the Kirk has it as the Presentation of Christ at the Temple (or words to that effect) in the Book of Common Order, though I still got some *looks* when I mentioned it in a Session meeting. I mention it only because it marks the end of the season of Epiphany in the RCL, and is in some sense the "official" end of Christmas in the western church.
Yes, “The Presentation of the Lord” is how it is in our (PC(USA)) calendar. But I suspect that any suggestion to mark the day liturgically, or any suggestion that it is the end of the Christmas/Epiphany season would also get *looks*—not of suspicion, but of the “I’m confused, what are you talking about?” variety.
In our calendar, there isn’t really a “season” of Epiphany. There is the day of Epiphany, which is considered the end of the Christmas cycle (Advent–Christmas–Epiphany), and then there is the “Time after Epiphany,” which like the “Time after Pentecost” is considered Ordinary Time.
And carols this morning for us. There used be a rule that carols stopped at midnight of Christmas Day, and yet again it was broken.
Eh? Where did this "rule" come from? As @Zappa pointed out, that would give a shelf-life of 24 hours for Christmas carols, unless you take it that carols start at 00.01 on 25th December and continue to 23.59 on 5th January, using the rationale of following the Julian calendar, so following the pattern of a, say, Tudor Christmas which began celebrations on 25th December and peaked on Epiphany, when gifts would be exchanged to reflect the gifts brought by the magi.
"Carols" as celebratory dances went on throughout the year, reflecting the feast or season.
Feast of St Stephen at our place; numbers reduced but a decent showing. Officially there is no choir until the Epiphany but a handful showed up (4-1-2-1) so we gave them a carol.
Setting
Downside Mass Murray Hymns/Carols
Unto us a boy is born
A great and mighty wonder
Of the Father's love begotten (pruned!)
Good King Wenceslas
The Choir sang Harold Darke's In the bleak mid-winter at communion.
Same here—at least the Epiphany part. It is still,Christmas, after all. (Candlemas would be all but unknown to folks in my tribe, and would, I think, be unfamiliar overall save to the most liturgically geeky Episcopalians/Anglicans or Catholics.)
I grew up with Candlemas, but the Kirk has it as the Presentation of Christ at the Temple (or words to that effect) in the Book of Common Order, though I still got some *looks* when I mentioned it in a Session meeting. I mention it only because it marks the end of the season of Epiphany in the RCL, and is in some sense the "official" end of Christmas in the western church.
And Presentation is how RCs name Feb 2 also.
Purification to the traddy Trids
Indeed.
They don't like it that a day about the impurity of women is now renamed as feast of Our Lord.
Odd lot.
Comments
I actually love "In the Bleak Midwinter". I know it wasn't winter and there was no frosty wind but I can make it work if I think of it metaphorically; winter like Narnia in people's hearts until we give him our hearts. Or something like that.
Nen - Old Sentimentalist
Today is the beginning of our salvation
and the manifestation of the eternal mystery:
the Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin
and Gabriel announces grace.
So with him let us also cry to the Mother of God:
'Rejoice, O Full of Grace! The Lord is with you.'
What does it mean? (Given simiilar comments about AIAM)
Belmont is a particularly sentimental tune. It can be used instead of Crimond (not sure that would be an improvement.) It appeals to this musician not one bit, with its falling phrases that invite singers to go flat and octave leaps that invite a communal slide up the scale. Its the sort of tune that a slightly drunk club singer would love to get their tonsils round. RCs sing a different set of words "O Lord accept my heart this day." Dreadful simpering stuff.
Would an observant Jewish husband have been present? I wonder. Bet the attending women would have done the honours ( ritual uncleanliness & all that)
It's hardly vernacular English now or then
Well, it's ok as long as he does not actually touch her. (Or anything with blood on it)
Though he can "touch her aura" which is a bit "woo" and energetic for the year 0 (CE/AD), but works in our contemporary world
[By the way, I've been intrigued for years about this "independent birth" scenario]
Rather than derail this thread, I've started a new thread on this hymn in case anyone is interested to pursue the discussion.
Joy To The World
Silent Night
Immanuel (Stuart Townend)
It Came Upon The Midnight Clear
O Little Town Of Bethlehem
O Come All Ye Faithful - after midnight, so we get to sing that last verse!
Once in royal
It came upon the midnight clear
Of the Father's love begotten
The God of Abraham praise
When he comes (which I had to input to musescore by hand, and modify because of course being relatively modern the score as written is far from the song as sung. I like the song but sheesh)
O come, o come, Emmanuel
The angel Gabriel from heaven came
The first noel
Hark the herald
What child is this
O come all ye faithful
I was particularly pleased with The God of Abraham praise in 4 part harmony.
I kid you not.
Come and join the celebration
The bells ring out
See him lying on a bed of straw
When God from heaven to earth came down (goes to "I saw three ships")
Hark! The herald angels sing.
As a teen-ager, I remember our youth group walking round the village with a "Happy Birthday Jesus" banner one Christmas day.
We had Happy Birthday to Jesus at the kiddies Mass.
Angels We Have Heard on High
Infant Holy, Infant Lowly
O Little Town of Bethlehem (ST. LOUIS)
Silent Night
Joy to the World
At the 8:00 service we had:
O Come All Ye Faithful (without the last verse)
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing
Once in Royal David’s City
Blest Be the God of Israel (The Song of Zachariah) (MERLE’S TUNE)
Where Shepherds Lately Knelt (MANGER SONG)
Love Has Come (BRING A TORCH)
In the Bleak Midwinter
Silent Night
The First Nowell
I was singing in the choir for both services, which were a change from our past 5:00 and 11:00 times.
Again.
Setting
Ireland in C (S, B & A-D)
Hymns/Carols
It came upon the midnight clear - tune by Sullivan
Behold, the great Creator makes This Endris night
O little town of Bethlehem Forest Green
Hark! The herald angels sing Mendelssohn
The Choir sang The Coventry Carol and Malcolm Williamson's arrangement of Ding dong! Merrily on high
Christmas morning
Setting
Darke in F
Hymns/Carols
Christians awake! Yorkshire
Behold, the great Creator makes This Endris night
O come, all ye faithful Adeste fidelis
God rest you merry, gentlemen
The Choir sang O little one sweet and Parry's Welcome, Yule! at communion.
Hmmm ... since they strictly shouldn't be sung before Christmas Eve that would give them, surely, a rather short shelf life (not that I'd complain)?
We did sing the Dudman setting yesterday. I know that some people are less than kind about it, but it has three great advantages: it was written for the APBA 2nd Order; it is within the range and ability of most congregations; and we find it pleasant. I think that behind much of the criticism is that is has those qualities.
A previous parish priest was well-acquainted with the composer, who had a taste for the grog. According to Father WS, the deadline for the completion of the setting was fast approaching, little progress having been made. Casting around for inspiration, Michael Dudman settled upon the tune for Three Blind Mice. The setting is alleged to be a series of variations thereon. Maybe that is the source of its approachability.
O Little Town of Bethlehem
God Rest you Merry, Gentlemen As we stood to sing, the organist asked the minister if we were singing all 7 verses. After admitting to a lack of preparation, a straw poll of the congregation decided we would do "the full monty"!
Silent Night, Holy Night
Angels From the Realms of Glory
Yes, I really can't understand the doctrinaire rulings on when carols can and can't be sung - who has decreed this? Also, visitors to church in (say) the week or so before Christmas will expect carols and be disappointed and puzzled if there aren't any.
Oh never mind. Had to be there really. But it was a little surprising.
Today, we had:
On This Day Earth Shall Ring/PERSONENT HODIE
It Came upon the Midnight Clear
Lord, Bid Your Servant Go in Peace (The Song of Simeon)/LAND OF REST
Before the Marvel of this Night/MARVEL
Go Tell It on the Mountain
I grew up with Candlemas, but the Kirk has it as the Presentation of Christ at the Temple (or words to that effect) in the Book of Common Order, though I still got some *looks* when I mentioned it in a Session meeting. I mention it only because it marks the end of the season of Epiphany in the RCL, and is in some sense the "official" end of Christmas in the western church.
And Presentation is how RCs name Feb 2 also.
Purification to the traddy Trids
Don’t remind me. It’s the only service I’ve left before it ended.🙄
In our calendar, there isn’t really a “season” of Epiphany. There is the day of Epiphany, which is considered the end of the Christmas cycle (Advent–Christmas–Epiphany), and then there is the “Time after Epiphany,” which like the “Time after Pentecost” is considered Ordinary Time.
Eh? Where did this "rule" come from? As @Zappa pointed out, that would give a shelf-life of 24 hours for Christmas carols, unless you take it that carols start at 00.01 on 25th December and continue to 23.59 on 5th January, using the rationale of following the Julian calendar, so following the pattern of a, say, Tudor Christmas which began celebrations on 25th December and peaked on Epiphany, when gifts would be exchanged to reflect the gifts brought by the magi.
"Carols" as celebratory dances went on throughout the year, reflecting the feast or season.
Setting
Downside Mass Murray
Hymns/Carols
Unto us a boy is born
A great and mighty wonder
Of the Father's love begotten (pruned!)
Good King Wenceslas
The Choir sang Harold Darke's In the bleak mid-winter at communion.
From my grandmother, so you will appreciate its authority.
Interested minds would like to know….
Indeed.
They don't like it that a day about the impurity of women is now renamed as feast of Our Lord.
Odd lot.
The Presbyterian one, and on reflection that would explain it.