I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
Of course, FIEC-type churches don't ever say that they are excluding Christians who see things differently to themselves, rather they say something about being "happy to share fellowship with all Christians who share our Gospel values".
And there are three books of Bell's in the extensive bibliography
Just a note that those are two different Daniel Bells.
Ah - I see - the first one is someone else. Thanks.
Does that happen often in bibliographies?
I think the academics themselves tend to use an initial or similar to disambiguate if they are in related fields (the latter goes as Daniel M Bell Jr).
I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
Of course, FIEC-type churches don't ever say that they are excluding Christians who see things differently to themselves, rather they say something about being "happy to share fellowship with all Christians who share our Gospel values".
Well, logically all P is Q doesn't imply that non P cannot be Q, but we all know what they mean when they specify P.
IME the welcome is actually on a sliding scale, inversely proportional to the product of how much you differ from them and how much you talk about it.
On the FIEC, I get the impression that they are on something of a church-planting roll at the moment.
Intriguingly, an FIEC minister from the south-coast who led a church plant in Halifax has just been ordained an Orthodox deacon and was recently received into Orthodoxy along with 30 members of his congregation.
There have been similar instances in the US but not here in the UK apart from individuals rather than groups.
On the FIEC, I get the impression that they are on something of a church-planting roll at the moment.
Intriguingly, an FIEC minister from the south-coast who led a church plant in Halifax has just been ordained an Orthodox deacon and was recently received into Orthodoxy along with 30 members of his congregation.
There have been similar instances in the US but not here in the UK apart from individuals rather than groups.
Interesting, I feel like the journey there feels less "natural" to me than in the case of eg Restorationist churches -> Orthodoxy. Not that people from all kinds of backgrounds can't join Orthodoxy but ime (and I lived in Sussex for a long time, with many FIEC churches in the area) it's a less expected kind of personality type.
On the FIEC, I get the impression that they are on something of a church-planting roll at the moment.
My understanding is that as some of the earlier church planting movements from the resurgence of reformed groups folded or lost their shine (Acts 29, City to City, Co-Mission etc), a lot of the institutional energy was re-directed via the FIEC as an umbrella (going via the AMiE involves a lot more structure).
On the FIEC, I get the impression that they are on something of a church-planting roll at the moment.
Intriguingly, an FIEC minister from the south-coast who led a church plant in Halifax has just been ordained an Orthodox deacon and was recently received into Orthodoxy along with 30 members of his congregation.
There have been similar instances in the US but not here in the UK apart from individuals rather than groups.
Interesting, I feel like the journey there feels less "natural" to me than in the case of eg Restorationist churches -> Orthodoxy. Not that people from all kinds of backgrounds can't join Orthodoxy but ime (and I lived in Sussex for a long time, with many FIEC churches in the area) it's a less expected kind of personality type.
Sure, and I can understand why you would get that impression.
The first evangelical-turned-Orthodox I ever met had been FIEC then Restorationist then Orthodox.
So in his case there was an intermediate stage as it were.
The group in Halifax went from FIEC to Orthodox in one fell swoop.
I've seen some of them in Zoom meetings but not visited their parish. I'd be interested in doing so.
Personality types and religious affiliation is an intriguing issue and one where it is difficult to generalise.
I'm not sure I was ever the 'right' personality type for restorationism, but I fitted in to some extent ... the Welsh 'hwyl' part of me, I think.
I have met Orthodox who I'd consider identical in terms of personality type to highly conservative evangelicals.
It is possible to exchange a biblical fundamentalism for a 'Church fundamentalism.'
Plenty of former evangelicals in the US who have become either Orthodox or RC have done that, I think.
It's no unknown here either but on a smaller scale.
Randall Balmer's book on American evangelicalism in the 80s (I think it's called "My eyes have seen the glory") had a chapter on a Pentecostal congregation which joined The Episcopal Church".
I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
What I find puzzling is that such a small place has SO many churches (there's the Catholic church too) and it almost feels a bit over the top so I'd be very interested in knowing about the numbers of churches in other areas where Shipmates live.
Point of fact, I could walk to each and every church within 30 minutes.
I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
What I find puzzling is that such a small place has SO many churches (there's the Catholic church too) and it almost feels a bit over the top so I'd be very interested in knowing about the numbers of churches in other areas where Shipmates live.
Point of fact, I could walk to each and every church within 30 minutes.
I grew up in a town with a population just under 10k. Just off the top of my head I can count at least 23 churches there when I was growing up, and. I’m pretty sure I’m forgetting some. That’s not counting store-front churches, just churches with their own buildings. It does include the Mormons and the JWs.
The town’s population has gone down since then, but only one or two of the 23 I can think of are now gone. Some have grown a great bit, some are about the same, and there are probably more store-front and “start-up” churches.
I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
What I find puzzling is that such a small place has SO many churches (there's the Catholic church too) and it almost feels a bit over the top so I'd be very interested in knowing about the numbers of churches in other areas where Shipmates live.
Point of fact, I could walk to each and every church within 30 minutes.
I grew up in a town with a population just under 10k. Just off the top of my head I can count at least 23 churches there when I was growing up, and. I’m pretty sure I’m forgetting some. That’s not counting store-front churches, just churches with their own buildings. It does include the Mormons and the JWs.
The town’s population has gone down since then, but only one or two of the 23 I can think of are now gone. Some have grown a great bit, some are about the same, and there are probably more store-front and “start-up” churches.
Wow! I think more of the US population are churchgoers than in the UK but for all that 23 seems to me like a lot of churches for a small place.
However, every place is different and I know there will be both history and story at play in the mix of all church mapping in any given location.
I'll confess that part of me grieves the sense of fragmentation that comes with a proliferation of churches but another part of me understands the need to belong.
Hey ho!
Wow! I think more of the US population are churchgoers than in the UK but for all that 23 seems to me like a lot of churches for a small place.
However, every place is different and I know there will be both history and story at play in the mix of all church mapping in any given location.
Three things: Yes, this is the US, where more of the population is/was churchgoing than in the UK. And where I’m talking about is the Southern US, where more of the population is/was churchgoing than much of the rest of the US.
Second, an established church isn’t part of the landscape in the US, and while some denominations may be more prevalent in some places, there will still be a variety of denominations and traditions. That’s seen as normal. Just the “downtown” churches included the Southern Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Episcopalians and the United Methodists.
And third, this is a part of the US where churches have tended to be separate racially. There are variety of reasons for this, and systemic racism is certainly a big reason. But there are other reasons as well, not least of which is that African American churches have long been places of African American autonomy and have been at the center of African American communities. There is a valid reluctance to lose what those churches have meant in African American culture. So it gets complicated.
The UK religious landscape is very different to that of the US, and there are differences across the various US states of course.
It's difficult to generalise but as far as a traditional English market-town goes, you'd generally have 2 or 3 Anglican parishes a Methodist, Baptist or URC, an RC church and possibly a small Salvation Army citadel or Pentecostal assembly.
There may also be a couple of Brethren assemblies, a Quaker meeting house or even the residual remnants of an older and more 'regional' Dissenting group (depending on where you are).
Now those may be augmented by several newer start-ups such as a 'community church', or a 'migrant' church of some kind.
I live in a town of around 15,000 people and there are two Anglican churches (one down to about 30 active parishioners), a Methodist church, a URC, an RC church, a Pentecostal church and a tiny Adventist congregation.
My hometown in South Wales consists of several merged communities that used to be separate industrial villages.
Each tends to have an Anglican church (all struggling) and a number of non-conformist chapels in various stages of decline. The traditional Pentecostal churches have all closed but there's a rip-roaring revivalist charismatic church on an industrial estate. There are 2 RC churches and a Salvation Army citadel.
It's interesting that we're beginning to see African-majority churches (largely Nigerian or Ghanaian) springing up in larger towns outside the main metropolitan areas.
I know a town in Hampshire which has one, much to my surprise.
We are also seeing Romanian Orthodox Churches springing up all over the place, in rural Herefordshire for instance where many work on the fruit-farms.
In Nor'n Ir'n' there are still more churches than you can shake a stick at but even there attendance is dropping.
I can't speak for Scotland but get the impression the Kirk is in a nose-dive. I attended a Saturday evening Mass in Oban recently and was struck by how many people were there, certainly considerably more than there were at the Scottish Episcopal cathedral the next morning.
Wow! I think more of the US population are churchgoers than in the UK but for all that 23 seems to me like a lot of churches for a small place.
However, every place is different and I know there will be both history and story at play in the mix of all church mapping in any given location.
Three things: Yes, this is the US, where more of the population is/was churchgoing than in the UK. And where I’m talking about is the Southern US, where more of the population is/was churchgoing than much of the rest of the US.
Second, an established church isn’t part of the landscape in the US, and while some denominations may be more prevalent in some places, there will still be a variety of denominations and traditions. That’s seen as normal. Just the “downtown” churches included the Southern Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Episcopalians and the United Methodists.
And third, this is a part of the US where churches have tended to be separate racially. There are variety of reasons for this, and systemic racism is certainly a big reason. But there are other reasons as well, not least of which is that African American churches have long been places of African American autonomy and have been at the center of African American communities. There is a valid reluctance to lose what those churches have meant in African American culture. So it gets complicated.
I completely forgot about the Quaker meeting house, to my shame!
I also didn't mention that we have JW and LDS congregations.
So I just did a quick search and discovered that Chichester also has a congregation called Victory Church which meets in a community centre! It is, I think, part of a network of multicultural congregations of African origin.
I'm somewhat unimpressed with my ignorance of my own patch 🙃
It is possible to exchange a biblical fundamentalism for a 'Church fundamentalism.'
It is very easy to assume that one axis of faith definition is the most critical one - evangelical, traditionalist whatever. But for some people, it is the fundamentalism that is important. The certainty, the absoluteness. So some people will move as you say from a fundamentalist (or at least exclusivist) something to fundamentalist something else. Not just a modified version of the previous definition.
Interestingly, although off point, the same is happening in political allegiences. People are not always moving along the left/right axis. Some people make what seems like radical changes from Green or socialist to Reform or similar. The reasoning is that they are both anti-stasis. They both oppose the current state of being. That is a different axis to negotiate.
It is possible to exchange a biblical fundamentalism for a 'Church fundamentalism.'
It is very easy to assume that one axis of faith definition is the most critical one - evangelical, traditionalist whatever. But for some people, it is the fundamentalism that is important. The certainty, the absoluteness. So some people will move as you say from a fundamentalist (or at least exclusivist) something to fundamentalist something else. Not just a modified version of the previous definition.
I moved from fundamentalist to liberal. I just couldn't carry on pretending that we can really know anything about God with any degree of certainty. Sure, absoluteness would be nice, but it's a mirage. If it weren't, you'd have established fact instead and - well, I wouldn't say we wouldn't have different positions - I mean, Flat Earthers and YECcies exist, there will always be reality deniers - but we'd have a very clear idea of what the established mainstream position would be.
Originally posted by Gamma Gamaliel: I can't speak for Scotland but get the impression the Kirk is in a nose-dive.
Yes, but we are undergoing a huge restructuring. Time will tell what the impact of that will be. Parishes are being merged and churches sold off, which is painful, but will mean that we will have to put less time and resources into maintaining C19th buildings. It may mean that we lose more people if their local church closes, or it may consolidate larger, more active congregations which have a healthier long term future.
My church is now part of a much larger parish comprising five former parishes, which between them had eight church buildings and four ministers. Since the consolidation, three of those eight churches and two manses have been sold off, and two ministers have left and not been replaced. It's working for me, personally, as my church is one of the two strongest churches in the area grouping (in terms of congregation size, and having a well maintained church and manse), I drive and can access services across the larger parish and I've enjoyed getting to know people from the other congregations.
I don't have a gut feeling as to whether this has been a judicious pruning, which will lead to new growth, or the death blow. But I am not, personally, despondent.
As a historian I love church buildings, and church architecture. When I was asked to write a column on "my favourite building" for a national magazine, I chose my church. But I can clearly separate my feelings about churches from my feelings about the role of the church. And that role is not just to be the custodian of historical artefacts.
I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
What I find puzzling is that such a small place has SO many churches (there's the Catholic church too) and it almost feels a bit over the top so I'd be very interested in knowing about the numbers of churches in other areas where Shipmates live.
Point of fact, I could walk to each and every church within 30 minutes.
This feels about right to me, I lived in Eastbourne for many years and it was a similar story there. Some areas just have a lot of churches and Sussex is one of them - East Anglia is another that springs to mind, as does Cornwall.
@Nick Tamen@Gamma Gamaliel Sussex - where @MrsBeaky lives and where I lived for many years - tends to be a lot more church-heavy than many other parts of the UK, particularly when it comes to smaller Protestant denominations. Eastbourne, where I used to live, had a very active Strict Baptist chapel a few hundred yards away from a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion church (one of their larger congregations too) in a busy commercial area of town. Sussex generally was a hotbed of historical Protestantism due to being in easy reach of continental Europe, similar to the Low Countries' influence on East Anglia. People still shout "no Popery" at the Lewes bonfire every year. East Grinstead is also home to the UK headquarters of Scientology (although in the UK Scientology isn't legally a religion).
Yet Brighton, where I grew up had a bunch of very high Anglican churches.
Merseyside, where I now live also is church-rich ranging from a Russian Orthodox community that has taken over the cemetery chapel via the Free Church of England to a Jubilee Church that has taken over a disused Anglican church and a Hebron chapel. None of the above are members of the local Churches Together set-up.
Originally posted by Mrs Beaky: I'd be very interested in knowing about the numbers of churches in other areas where Shipmates live.
My village has two, Church of Scotland and Evangelical. Nearest town (pop 15,000) has two C of S, RC, Episcopalian, Baptist and three Evangelical churches which don't have their own premises, but meet in halls. One of the Evangelical churches is wholly or primarily Nigerian and they have an excellent choir, which has sung at events organised by the more traditional churches.
I live in the beautiful Cathedral city of Chichester on the south coast of England. Within the city we have (in addition to the Cathedral) five C of E churches, two of which are evangelical. We also have seven other evangelical churches. Chichester has a population of just under 30k and I have lived here almost 40 years. Three of the evangelical churches have been started during that time. Some of the nine evangelical churches are strongly not charismatic, the rest mildly so. I know people who attend most of them. The newest is an FIEC church started last year. There is regular small scale movement across the charismatic ones (including Anglican) and the worship style would be broadly similar in all the charismatic ones. The other evangelical churches have a stronger take on their doctrinal position and less local transfer- the FIEC church launched itself with a statement about Chichester needing a biblically based church- I admit to wondering what the other eight evangelical churches made of that?!
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
What I find puzzling is that such a small place has SO many churches (there's the Catholic church too) and it almost feels a bit over the top so I'd be very interested in knowing about the numbers of churches in other areas where Shipmates live.
Point of fact, I could walk to each and every church within 30 minutes.
This feels about right to me, I lived in Eastbourne for many years and it was a similar story there. Some areas just have a lot of churches and Sussex is one of them - East Anglia is another that springs to mind, as does Cornwall.
That's an interesting and helpful observation as are the historical reasons for such church density. Thank you
Churches that meet in rented spaces can be easy to miss depending on what signage etc they are allowed
This is exactly what happened when I was counting up the churches here in Chichester. I also realised after my Internet search that we'd had a Vineyard congregation which appears to no longer be meeting.
Changes I’ve noticed in evangelicalism over the last 20-30 years, having attended the same Midlands evangelical church throughout this period, taking part in local evangelical networks and these days working part-time behind the scenes in a liberal Anglican Diocese 50 miles away. Oh, and visiting numerous evangelical churches on holiday and frequent long weekends away – one benefit of reaching this stage of life:
1. More racial diversity
2. Greater polarisation into conservative and charismatic thinking. The former adopting a 1970s view of male/female roles – not an especially Biblical one, in my view
3. Point 2 above leading to fewer professional women in the membership, even though this group has grown in the general population
4. Due to Point 3 above, fewer well-known female influencers. Today’s evangelical movement could not produce another Joyce Huggett or Elaine Storkey, for example. They just wouldn’t be given a platform often enough to build their profile
5. In 2018 the Church Times published an article supporting my perception that in the early days of female ordinands, most came from the evangelical wing. Few do now.
6. ‘Standards inflation’, whereby all activities are done to a better standard, which needs more resources and volunteers. An general issue not unique to this area of the church.
7. Charismatic worship seems more haphazard and noisy, unlike 20-30 years ago when a service paused and waited in hushed anticipation for an interpretation of uttered words
8. More uncritical acceptance of the views of well-known (usually American and male) writers and influencers, rather than questioning how culturally relevant their views are.
9. 20-30 years ago it was normal to ask a leader or conference speaker difficult questions and to expect nuanced and polite debate. Nowadays a speaker actually looks quite shocked if anyone dares to question them.
10. Direction seems now to come largely from the top down, whereas a generation ago it was driven by grassroots fervour.
2. Greater polarisation into conservative and charismatic thinking. The former adopting a 1970s view of male/female roles – not an especially Biblical one, in my view
3. Point 2 above leading to fewer professional women in the membership, even though this group has grown in the general population
4. Due to Point 3 above, fewer well-known female influencers. Today’s evangelical movement could not produce another Joyce Huggett or Elaine Storkey, for example. They just wouldn’t be given a platform often enough to build their profile
5. In 2018 the Church Times published an article supporting my perception that in the early days of female ordinands, most came from the evangelical wing. Few do now.
This seems a dubious set of assertions to me. The groups around HTB and New Wine account for a disproportionate share of ordinands and both ordain women.
7. Charismatic worship seems more haphazard and noisy, unlike 20-30 years ago when a service paused and waited in hushed anticipation for an interpretation of uttered words
This seems to be one of those verbs rendered irregular by chronology.
9. More uncritical acceptance of the views of well-known (usually American and male) writers and influencers, rather than questioning how culturally relevant their views are.
I'll give you that, along with three of the most common sources for worship music coming from rather heterodox sources.
Comments
Just a note that those are two different Daniel Bells.
Does that happen often in bibliographies?
Normal behaviour for Sussex tbh, it attracts Christian esoterica like moths to a flame - including evangelical esoterica.
Of course, FIEC-type churches don't ever say that they are excluding Christians who see things differently to themselves, rather they say something about being "happy to share fellowship with all Christians who share our Gospel values".
I think the academics themselves tend to use an initial or similar to disambiguate if they are in related fields (the latter goes as Daniel M Bell Jr).
Well, logically all P is Q doesn't imply that non P cannot be Q, but we all know what they mean when they specify P.
IME the welcome is actually on a sliding scale, inversely proportional to the product of how much you differ from them and how much you talk about it.
Intriguingly, an FIEC minister from the south-coast who led a church plant in Halifax has just been ordained an Orthodox deacon and was recently received into Orthodoxy along with 30 members of his congregation.
There have been similar instances in the US but not here in the UK apart from individuals rather than groups.
Interesting, I feel like the journey there feels less "natural" to me than in the case of eg Restorationist churches -> Orthodoxy. Not that people from all kinds of backgrounds can't join Orthodoxy but ime (and I lived in Sussex for a long time, with many FIEC churches in the area) it's a less expected kind of personality type.
My understanding is that as some of the earlier church planting movements from the resurgence of reformed groups folded or lost their shine (Acts 29, City to City, Co-Mission etc), a lot of the institutional energy was re-directed via the FIEC as an umbrella (going via the AMiE involves a lot more structure).
Sure, and I can understand why you would get that impression.
The first evangelical-turned-Orthodox I ever met had been FIEC then Restorationist then Orthodox.
So in his case there was an intermediate stage as it were.
The group in Halifax went from FIEC to Orthodox in one fell swoop.
I've seen some of them in Zoom meetings but not visited their parish. I'd be interested in doing so.
Personality types and religious affiliation is an intriguing issue and one where it is difficult to generalise.
I'm not sure I was ever the 'right' personality type for restorationism, but I fitted in to some extent ... the Welsh 'hwyl' part of me, I think.
I have met Orthodox who I'd consider identical in terms of personality type to highly conservative evangelicals.
It is possible to exchange a biblical fundamentalism for a 'Church fundamentalism.'
Plenty of former evangelicals in the US who have become either Orthodox or RC have done that, I think.
It's no unknown here either but on a smaller scale.
What I find puzzling is that such a small place has SO many churches (there's the Catholic church too) and it almost feels a bit over the top so I'd be very interested in knowing about the numbers of churches in other areas where Shipmates live.
Point of fact, I could walk to each and every church within 30 minutes.
The town’s population has gone down since then, but only one or two of the 23 I can think of are now gone. Some have grown a great bit, some are about the same, and there are probably more store-front and “start-up” churches.
Wow! I think more of the US population are churchgoers than in the UK but for all that 23 seems to me like a lot of churches for a small place.
However, every place is different and I know there will be both history and story at play in the mix of all church mapping in any given location.
I'll confess that part of me grieves the sense of fragmentation that comes with a proliferation of churches but another part of me understands the need to belong.
Hey ho!
Second, an established church isn’t part of the landscape in the US, and while some denominations may be more prevalent in some places, there will still be a variety of denominations and traditions. That’s seen as normal. Just the “downtown” churches included the Southern Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Episcopalians and the United Methodists.
And third, this is a part of the US where churches have tended to be separate racially. There are variety of reasons for this, and systemic racism is certainly a big reason. But there are other reasons as well, not least of which is that African American churches have long been places of African American autonomy and have been at the center of African American communities. There is a valid reluctance to lose what those churches have meant in African American culture. So it gets complicated.
It's difficult to generalise but as far as a traditional English market-town goes, you'd generally have 2 or 3 Anglican parishes a Methodist, Baptist or URC, an RC church and possibly a small Salvation Army citadel or Pentecostal assembly.
There may also be a couple of Brethren assemblies, a Quaker meeting house or even the residual remnants of an older and more 'regional' Dissenting group (depending on where you are).
Now those may be augmented by several newer start-ups such as a 'community church', or a 'migrant' church of some kind.
I live in a town of around 15,000 people and there are two Anglican churches (one down to about 30 active parishioners), a Methodist church, a URC, an RC church, a Pentecostal church and a tiny Adventist congregation.
My hometown in South Wales consists of several merged communities that used to be separate industrial villages.
Each tends to have an Anglican church (all struggling) and a number of non-conformist chapels in various stages of decline. The traditional Pentecostal churches have all closed but there's a rip-roaring revivalist charismatic church on an industrial estate. There are 2 RC churches and a Salvation Army citadel.
It's interesting that we're beginning to see African-majority churches (largely Nigerian or Ghanaian) springing up in larger towns outside the main metropolitan areas.
I know a town in Hampshire which has one, much to my surprise.
We are also seeing Romanian Orthodox Churches springing up all over the place, in rural Herefordshire for instance where many work on the fruit-farms.
In Nor'n Ir'n' there are still more churches than you can shake a stick at but even there attendance is dropping.
I can't speak for Scotland but get the impression the Kirk is in a nose-dive. I attended a Saturday evening Mass in Oban recently and was struck by how many people were there, certainly considerably more than there were at the Scottish Episcopal cathedral the next morning.
Really helpful summary, thank you
I also didn't mention that we have JW and LDS congregations.
So I just did a quick search and discovered that Chichester also has a congregation called Victory Church which meets in a community centre! It is, I think, part of a network of multicultural congregations of African origin.
I'm somewhat unimpressed with my ignorance of my own patch 🙃
It is very easy to assume that one axis of faith definition is the most critical one - evangelical, traditionalist whatever. But for some people, it is the fundamentalism that is important. The certainty, the absoluteness. So some people will move as you say from a fundamentalist (or at least exclusivist) something to fundamentalist something else. Not just a modified version of the previous definition.
Interestingly, although off point, the same is happening in political allegiences. People are not always moving along the left/right axis. Some people make what seems like radical changes from Green or socialist to Reform or similar. The reasoning is that they are both anti-stasis. They both oppose the current state of being. That is a different axis to negotiate.
I moved from fundamentalist to liberal. I just couldn't carry on pretending that we can really know anything about God with any degree of certainty. Sure, absoluteness would be nice, but it's a mirage. If it weren't, you'd have established fact instead and - well, I wouldn't say we wouldn't have different positions - I mean, Flat Earthers and YECcies exist, there will always be reality deniers - but we'd have a very clear idea of what the established mainstream position would be.
I can't speak for Scotland but get the impression the Kirk is in a nose-dive.
Yes, but we are undergoing a huge restructuring. Time will tell what the impact of that will be. Parishes are being merged and churches sold off, which is painful, but will mean that we will have to put less time and resources into maintaining C19th buildings. It may mean that we lose more people if their local church closes, or it may consolidate larger, more active congregations which have a healthier long term future.
My church is now part of a much larger parish comprising five former parishes, which between them had eight church buildings and four ministers. Since the consolidation, three of those eight churches and two manses have been sold off, and two ministers have left and not been replaced. It's working for me, personally, as my church is one of the two strongest churches in the area grouping (in terms of congregation size, and having a well maintained church and manse), I drive and can access services across the larger parish and I've enjoyed getting to know people from the other congregations.
I don't have a gut feeling as to whether this has been a judicious pruning, which will lead to new growth, or the death blow. But I am not, personally, despondent.
As a historian I love church buildings, and church architecture. When I was asked to write a column on "my favourite building" for a national magazine, I chose my church. But I can clearly separate my feelings about churches from my feelings about the role of the church. And that role is not just to be the custodian of historical artefacts.
This feels about right to me, I lived in Eastbourne for many years and it was a similar story there. Some areas just have a lot of churches and Sussex is one of them - East Anglia is another that springs to mind, as does Cornwall.
Merseyside, where I now live also is church-rich ranging from a Russian Orthodox community that has taken over the cemetery chapel via the Free Church of England to a Jubilee Church that has taken over a disused Anglican church and a Hebron chapel. None of the above are members of the local Churches Together set-up.
I'd be very interested in knowing about the numbers of churches in other areas where Shipmates live.
My village has two, Church of Scotland and Evangelical. Nearest town (pop 15,000) has two C of S, RC, Episcopalian, Baptist and three Evangelical churches which don't have their own premises, but meet in halls. One of the Evangelical churches is wholly or primarily Nigerian and they have an excellent choir, which has sung at events organised by the more traditional churches.
That's an interesting and helpful observation as are the historical reasons for such church density. Thank you
This is exactly what happened when I was counting up the churches here in Chichester. I also realised after my Internet search that we'd had a Vineyard congregation which appears to no longer be meeting.
1. More racial diversity
2. Greater polarisation into conservative and charismatic thinking. The former adopting a 1970s view of male/female roles – not an especially Biblical one, in my view
3. Point 2 above leading to fewer professional women in the membership, even though this group has grown in the general population
4. Due to Point 3 above, fewer well-known female influencers. Today’s evangelical movement could not produce another Joyce Huggett or Elaine Storkey, for example. They just wouldn’t be given a platform often enough to build their profile
5. In 2018 the Church Times published an article supporting my perception that in the early days of female ordinands, most came from the evangelical wing. Few do now.
6. ‘Standards inflation’, whereby all activities are done to a better standard, which needs more resources and volunteers. An general issue not unique to this area of the church.
7. Charismatic worship seems more haphazard and noisy, unlike 20-30 years ago when a service paused and waited in hushed anticipation for an interpretation of uttered words
8. More uncritical acceptance of the views of well-known (usually American and male) writers and influencers, rather than questioning how culturally relevant their views are.
9. 20-30 years ago it was normal to ask a leader or conference speaker difficult questions and to expect nuanced and polite debate. Nowadays a speaker actually looks quite shocked if anyone dares to question them.
10. Direction seems now to come largely from the top down, whereas a generation ago it was driven by grassroots fervour.
This seems a dubious set of assertions to me. The groups around HTB and New Wine account for a disproportionate share of ordinands and both ordain women.
This seems to be one of those verbs rendered irregular by chronology.
I'll give you that, along with three of the most common sources for worship music coming from rather heterodox sources.