My MP has spent the last few weeks touring the country talking up Reform and repeating scare stories about Immigrants. We had an important event in town a couple of weeks ago which he didn't make as he was in Cleethorpes serving fish and chips instead.
Reform ran this election as a cross between a General election a referendum on Starmer, and I'm afraid a lot of people bought into their narrative. I thought the shine was beginning to come off Reform, and I sincerely hope by the next General Election it has.
It might be possible for Reform to have enough time to have made enough of a pigs ear in local councils, that folks are less confident about voting for them in the next GE.
I think this might work for a some, but there's a good section of their support who just want to smash things up, or will readily accept a series of escalating excuses ("We are being stopped from doing proper Reform policy by the woke civil service/woke Westminster blob" and so on).
Yes.
I think the shine has come off to some extent, but nowhere near enough.
Some people seem to want them to wreck everything.
And presumably, they don't see themselves as fascist.
For a long time now, "nazism" and "fascism" have been used as stand-ins for whatever ideology a given opinionator doesn't like.
In the movie from a few years back Blinded by the Light, about an ethnically Pakistani teenager growing up in 80s Britain, there was a plot-strand about the kid encountering his curmudgeonly old WW2 veteran neighbour, and fearfully assuming the man might be sympathetic to certain racist movements in the UK at the time. He's joyfully surprised when the neighbour opines something like "Those thugs are exactly what we fought against in the war, and I won't have them now!" IME, at least in Canada, that's not a common ideological connection people make.
This is not about lazily labeling people one doesn't like as 'Nszis'. This is about actual fascists.
I think you're misunderstanding my point. I wasn't arguing that it's unfair to call Reform fascists(in fact, I agree they fit the academic definition), but that it's possible for someone to consciously think that fighting fascism/nazism in World War 2 was a good thing, while seeing no contradiction in supporting contemporary parties that are fascist in all but name.
For another example, see Putin's propagandists saying stuff like "You think Russia would have been able to defeat the nazis if their army had been a buncha woke DEI soy-boys?"
I detest Reform, everything it stands for, and its leader, and those who associate themselves with him. I can't, don't and don't want to see why anyone would want to vote for them even in England. But the thing that seems even more utterly incomprehensible and unsympathetic is that there are apparently people voting in large numbers for it and its candidates in Wales and Scotland. That really, really does not make sense at all. Can any shipmate who is actually in Wales or Scotland explain anything that might even begin to shed any light on this?
...the thing that seems even more utterly incomprehensible and unsympathetic is that there are apparently people voting in large numbers for it and its candidates in Wales and Scotland. That really, really does not make sense at all.
What percentage of the vote did Reform get in Scotland and Wales, respectively?
We also have Facebook/YouTube/X/ GBNews/Right wing newspaper poisoned reactionaries and racists, plus voters so low information they think falsely that they're making a harmless protest vote when they vote for fascists who've to a large extent been normalised and mainstreamed by most of the media.
There are relatively fewer of them than in England and Wales - we're waiting on the last list declaration to know the exact figures, they're currently in 3rd with 15 seats - but they exist and are predominantly older voters, a lot are ex Tories who've been radicalised and it's eaten into their vote but some are ex Labour or SNP.
At the moment the figures for seats are SNP 57, Labour 17, Reform 15, Green 13 Conservative 11, Lib dem 9. The Tories are down 16 seats so that gives you some idea of the effect Reform has had on them.
Reform couldn't win any constituency seat, they have only taken list seats. The Greens won two constituency seats with the rest coming from the lists. The 7 seats on the Highland regional list are yet to declare.
And presumably, they don't see themselves as fascist.
For a long time now, "nazism" and "fascism" have been used as stand-ins for whatever ideology a given opinionator doesn't like.
In the movie from a few years back Blinded by the Light, about an ethnically Pakistani teenager growing up in 80s Britain, there was a plot-strand about the kid encountering his curmudgeonly old WW2 veteran neighbour, and fearfully assuming the man might be sympathetic to certain racist movements in the UK at the time. He's joyfully surprised when the neighbour opines something like "Those thugs are exactly what we fought against in the war, and I won't have them now!" IME, at least in Canada, that's not a common ideological connection people make.
This is not about lazily labeling people one doesn't like as 'Nszis'. This is about actual fascists.
“There really is a wolf this time! Why won’t anyone believe me???”
So thinking about it the right wing block have actually gone down by two seats as the Tories lost 19 seats but Reform only picked up 17 of those. It's bad news that these voters have gone further right, but since Douglas Ross the Scottish Conservatives have been fairly nasty and radicalised anyway. I think these are mostly the same voters.
The SNP went down 6 but the Greens went up 6 so conservation of indy votes but leaning more left.
Labour went down 4 and the Lib dems up 6 - so the more liberal end of Unionism did well.
(Labour ran a hideous social conservative leaning manifesto so I'd put the Scottish Lib Dems to the left of them)
And presumably, they don't see themselves as fascist.
For a long time now, "nazism" and "fascism" have been used as stand-ins for whatever ideology a given opinionator doesn't like.
In the movie from a few years back Blinded by the Light, about an ethnically Pakistani teenager growing up in 80s Britain, there was a plot-strand about the kid encountering his curmudgeonly old WW2 veteran neighbour, and fearfully assuming the man might be sympathetic to certain racist movements in the UK at the time. He's joyfully surprised when the neighbour opines something like "Those thugs are exactly what we fought against in the war, and I won't have them now!" IME, at least in Canada, that's not a common ideological connection people make.
This is not about lazily labeling people one doesn't like as 'Nszis'. This is about actual fascists.
“There really is a wolf this time! Why won’t anyone believe me???”
As the person who got us on this tangent, I'll reiterate that my desired topic was not whether the left is right or wrong to describe Reform as fascist, but the possibility of people who consciously regard themselves as opposed to fascism, voting for parties that are effectively fascist.
It DOES assume, as a premise that groups like Reform are fascist. My own view is they do fit the textbook "18th Brumaire As Farce" definition of fascism, but that's not the same thing as saying they pose the same sorta material threat as the 1930s parties and regimes did. It's possible that Reform has just coasted in on a 'trow-da-bums-out mood across the island, and after a guaranteed gong-show of bad governance and botched mic-drops at various regional levels, will be reduced back to their previous stature, wholly discredited as the possible ditect inheritors of power at Westminster.
That's how I've seen it played out with third-party far-right groups elsewhere, in any case. As an example for those interested, it's pretty much what happened to Reform's Canadian namesake and the namesake's spawn-parties from the late 1980s to the early 2000s, eventually having to fold and merge back into a broader conservative brokerage-party, more resembling, at least in structure and demographics, the old parties that ran under the name "Conservative".
Since AFAIK the UK has for a very long time not had a viable right-wing third-party viewed as anywhere near ready for nationwide rule, political junkies might find the Reform Party of Canada and its aftermath an interesting case study. Granted, they started-out playing to provincial grievances which probably don't have precise parallels in the UK, but the general outlook of the adherents is basically the same.
I detest Reform, everything it stands for, and its leader, and those who associate themselves with him. I can't, don't and don't want to see why anyone would want to vote for them even in England. But the thing that seems even more utterly incomprehensible and unsympathetic is that there are apparently people voting in large numbers for it and its candidates in Wales and Scotland. That really, really does not make sense at all. Can any shipmate who is actually in Wales or Scotland explain anything that might even begin to shed any light on this?
Short answer: British Nationalism is a hell of a drug.
There is a proportion of Scots who see themselves as British rather than Scottish, and who buy into exactly the same nonsense as their English counterparts. There's also the Orange Order types who would historically have voted Conservative & Unionist, and religious conservatives who *really* hate LGBTQ+ people. Heck, there's a small but significant minority who want to scrap the Scottish Parliament and go back to direct rule from Westminster. Some people just really like the taste of boot.
And presumably, they don't see themselves as fascist.
For a long time now, "nazism" and "fascism" have been used as stand-ins for whatever ideology a given opinionator doesn't like.
In the movie from a few years back Blinded by the Light, about an ethnically Pakistani teenager growing up in 80s Britain, there was a plot-strand about the kid encountering his curmudgeonly old WW2 veteran neighbour, and fearfully assuming the man might be sympathetic to certain racist movements in the UK at the time. He's joyfully surprised when the neighbour opines something like "Those thugs are exactly what we fought against in the war, and I won't have them now!" IME, at least in Canada, that's not a common ideological connection people make.
This is not about lazily labeling people one doesn't like as 'Nszis'. This is about actual fascists.
“There really is a wolf this time! Why won’t anyone believe me???”
I do not know who you are talking about, but it clearly is not me. I know what fascism is and what Right politics are and how to correctly name them.
Glorying in violence, trying to close down journalism and promoting nepotism are all signs of fascism.
Scottish elections constituency vote share
•SNP: 38.2%
•Labour: 19.2%
•Reform: 15.8%
•Scottish Greens: 2.3%
•Conservatives: 11.8%
•LibDem: 11.4%
•Independent: 0.8%
•Alliance to Liberate Scotland: 0.2%
•Scottish Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition: 0.1%
•Scottish Common Party: 0.1%
•Workers Party of Britain: 0.1%
The Greens stand very few constituency candidates as they concentrate on list votes - so look at the regional vote share below for their popularity.
Scottish elections regional vote share
•SNP: 27.2%
•Labour: 16%
•Reform: 16.6%
•Scottish Greens: 14%
•Conservative: 11.8%
•LibDem: 9.4%
•Alliance to Liberate Scotland: 0.8%
•Scottish Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition: 0%
•Scottish Common Party: 0.1%
•Workers Party of Britain: 0.1%
Regional vote is probably the best indicator of how popular a party is.
Though, those indicators are still imperfect. I'll admit we (SGP) got a lot of regional votes from people who are naturally supporters of the SNP, in support of getting the largest possible number of pro-Indy MSPs. Conversely, the SNP regional vote is going to under represent their support because enough understand d'Hondt sufficiently to put their regional vote elsewhere (SGP and ALS mostly). Your list of regional votes misses out the parties that make Reform seem like moderates - 0.46% for Independent "Green" Voice and 0.40% for Scottish Family Party; though there are questions about whether those IGV votes were all people voting for unashamed Holocaust deniers who want to stop any further renewables generation because they liked what they'd seen of their policies (it's difficult to know the policies of a party that has effectively not campaigned).
The average I've not (yet) seen is the vote share across constituencies where parties stood. That would also be a more reasonable estimate of support for smaller parties which don't stand in every constituency, though noting that the selection of constituencies to stand in would be guided by local knowledge of where that part might do best.
No electoral system is perfect. Here in Wales I'd have preferred us to have stuck with the local/regional system, possibly with a different counting method than before (D'Hondt rather than STV).
Going on from @Baptist Trainfan. Here in Cymru Plaid (Welsh Independence) are the biggest party in the Senedd. Reform are second. If Plaid can make a pact with Labour they will have an outright majority needed to keep Reform at bay.
My Council is still firmly in Labour hands. There was a net -1 loss in seats, although some of the outcomes are odd. One ward elected the 'Workers' Party (sic)'.
I was particularly pleased that the Labour guy in my ward, who is a really sound human being, won with some ease. He may have benefited from a personal vote, and in this particular ward, a vote for Green would have helped the fascists.
It has been reported that the presence of IGV even caused confusion for counters here, nevermind voters. The Electoral Commission need to act; there's no way even half of those who voted realised who they were.
Btw, I'm still a little confused about the British elections but it seems Labour have lost a lot and Reform gained a lot. And naturally that is a cause for concern on the ship as it lists to port.
But take heart, people are fickle. They'll get disillusioned as they always do with Reform (or any party in power) and by the time the next national election comes around people will have it out of their system.
@WhimsicalChristian look at the policies. Everything is the fault of one single group, That group cannot be allowed to exist. "We" deserve everything; "they" deserve nothing. If that isn't the definition of fascism, I don't know what is.
Most people and parties blame someone or a group. Be it the government, the opposition government, the rich, the poor, the immigrants, globalisation, nationalism etc etc.
In my city, we did have candidates standing for the Communist Party of Great Britain, so it’s not really that ambiguous.
What is additionally annoying about MAGA and Reform is they are lead by people who are basically espousing facism, but trying to pretend they are not.
Key characteristics being: fundamental disrespect for democracy as a system, (often demonstrated through corrupt practices), attempts to seriously restrict the human rights of subsections of the population (often but not always expressed via racism, misogyny and religious bigotry) chauvinism masquerading as patriotism, and scapegoating of minorities for any given national problem (such as poor infrastructure, depressed economy etc).
In power such parties drift with greater or lesser speed toward tyranny - as you can see Trump doing or Orban attempted.
They are much bigger threat to the future of the country than, say, the Conservative Party - *because* they don’t respect democracy.
With @stetson I'm bemused by the designation of facists that seems to be everywhere these days.
It seems if you are right wing, you are a facist.
Does that mean if you are left wing you are a communist?
No, that's a massive exaggeration. The far right gets called fascist. Whether there's a non-fascist far-right is a discussion that can be had, but no-one's calling old school one-nation Tories fascists.
I don't know if Reform is fascist or fascist adjacent; it's a matter of interpretation of their policies and definitions. They certainly are fascist friendly - whenever Reformers gather on social media calls for political control of the justice system and sanctions against political opponents follow. There are plenty of Reform types out there who would see teachers imprisoned for using trans kids' preferred pronouns for example.
My best hope here is that the real head bangers float off to Restore or Advance or whatever the "we hate everyone who's not white, cis and straight and Muslims even they're all of those" party du jour is and leave Reform as a sort of Nasty Tory party. Then the right wing vote gets split between Tory, Reform and Full Fash and the rest of us can get on with electing governments which support - wait for it - liberal democracy.
In my city, we did have candidates standing for the Communist Party of Great Britain, so it’s not really that ambiguous.
What is additionally annoying about MAGA and Reform is they are lead by people who are basically espousing facism, but trying to pretend they are not.
Key characteristics being: fundamental disrespect for democracy as a system, (often demonstrated through corrupt practices), attempts to seriously restrict the human rights of subsections of the population (often but not always expressed via racism, misogyny and religious bigotry) chauvinism masquerading as patriotism, and scapegoating of minorities for any given national problem (such as poor infrastructure, depressed economy etc).
In power such parties drift with greater or lesser speed toward tyranny - as you can see Trump doing or Orban attempted.
They are much bigger threat to the future of the country than, say, the Conservative Party - *because* they don’t respect democracy.
As you may recall, Hitler was elected.
Just to add, venerating the leader is also not a great sign. If you have ever lived in a dictatorship for any period of time (I lived in various as a child owing to my Dad’s job) you tend to see massive *permanent* images of them all over the place and large amount of public buildings named after them. Trump is very on trend for this. I believe a gold statue of him has just been unveiled on a golf course.
Here in Cymru Plaid (Welsh Independence) are the biggest party in the Senedd. Reform are second. If Plaid can make a pact with Labour they will have an outright majority needed to keep Reform at bay.
That would do nicely, but is it likely? The Green leader in Wales has said that his party is open to conversations with Plaid Cymru as regards the new government, but the Greens have just two seats.
Plaid and Labour have cooperated in the Senedd before, but Plaid was the junior partner. I expect Labour will ask for a substantial share in the Welsh government, and that may well result in Plaid forming a minority government,
With @stetson I'm bemused by the designation of facists that seems to be everywhere these days.
It seems if you are right wing, you are a facist.
Does that mean if you are left wing you are a communist?
Fascist Let’s see now. Putting people in detention centres (concentration camps) before they are deported. The numbers they claim they will deport are higher than the number of illegals, so they are will to deport people with citizenship. Take women’s rights back to at least the Victorian age. That is just for starters. They are fascist
Might be worth sharing polling expert Professor John Curtice's comment on the night about England here
It is clear that the Labour party is losing plenty of seats to Reform. One might therefore conclude that it is Reform who are doing the most damage to Labour in terms of the vote.
However, that is not the pattern that is emerging from the results in the BBC's "key wards".
A sharp fall in Labour's performance is accompanied more often by an above average Green performance than it is by a strong Reform performance.
Meanwhile, it is the Conservatives who appear to be suffering most where Reform is advancing most.
It should be remembered that Labour may often lose seats to Reform because it is losing votes to the Greens, while the Conservatives are losing votes to Reform. The net effect can be that Labour end up losing a seat to Reform.
(bold mine)
Political analyst Peter Kellner points out that the seat share for Reform in England is actually down on last year
Reform have maintained their big lead in seats and votes. But they have won a smaller share of seats than last year: 30 per cent (down from 33 per cent this morning, and well down on last year’s 41 per cent). According to Sky News, Reform’s support equates to a 27 per cent share across Britain, five points down on the 32 per cent in the equivalent estimate last year
Even one seat is one too many for these snake oil and scapegoating purveyors but if they are mostly eating the Tory vote then this could be repairable in England by Labour stopping their policy of aping Reform.
How the older cadre of right- wing voters are getting poisoned with racism and attacks on trans people, disabled people and neurodivergent people is a separate question.
It's dangerous because first past the post can produce a UK government on a minority vote where due to the demographics of voting these voters are over-represented.
But it's important not to fall into 'doomerism'. It looks bad and as these voters have become more racist and 'Facebook poisoned' and are electing representatives to match, it is bad but when you come down to it, it's mainly the old Tory vote and it can be beaten.
Only if his ideas are any good and he has any power to advocate for them, otherwise it's just another attempt at liberal washing the current set of policies (see also the earlier appointment of Timpson)
Plaid and Labour have cooperated in the Senedd before, but Plaid was the junior partner. I expect Labour will ask for a substantial share in the Welsh government, and that may well result in Plaid forming a minority government,
Thank you! We shall, of course, see in due time...
The problem with comparisons to last year’s local elections is the places being contested then were largely rural county councils, whereas this year they’re largely urban boroughs. It’s reasonable to suppose that voting patterns in the two different areas would be different, and therefore that differences between last year and this are not indicative of changes in the nation as a whole.
Plaid and Labour have cooperated in the Senedd before, but Plaid was the junior partner. I expect Labour will ask for a substantial share in the Welsh government, and that may well result in Plaid forming a minority government,
Thank you! We shall, of course, see in due time...
I believe they have said they want to be a minority goverment. As a voter in Wales I think it is the wrong thing to do. I would have liked them to go with Labour which gives them the majority they need to stop Reform. As it stands Reform can cause no end of problems.
I’d prefer a Plaid/Labour pact or coalition to oppose Reform, although some Reform members do precious little work for their constituents or in the relevant legislature, so after a noisy start it may settle down once they realise they are irrelevance.
Plaid and Labour have cooperated in the Senedd before, but Plaid was the junior partner. I expect Labour will ask for a substantial share in the Welsh government, and that may well result in Plaid forming a minority government,
Thank you! We shall, of course, see in due time...
I believe they have said they want to be a minority goverment. As a voter in Wales I think it is the wrong thing to do. I would have liked them to go with Labour which gives them the majority they need to stop Reform. As it stands Reform can cause no end of problems.
It depends very much on how the other parties play. A minority government can work, it just needs enough representatives from other parties to support the government where they can, and it needs the government to recognise where they can't get support and not push things too hard. Reform do have enough seats to cause problems if they want, but there are enough members from other parties to get things done without being in a formal coalition. I suspect that the SNP in Scotland will also form a minority government and not seek a formal relationship with another party, which is how Scottish government has normally worked.
Comments
Yes.
I think the shine has come off to some extent, but nowhere near enough.
Some people seem to want them to wreck everything.
I think you're misunderstanding my point. I wasn't arguing that it's unfair to call Reform fascists(in fact, I agree they fit the academic definition), but that it's possible for someone to consciously think that fighting fascism/nazism in World War 2 was a good thing, while seeing no contradiction in supporting contemporary parties that are fascist in all but name.
For another example, see Putin's propagandists saying stuff like "You think Russia would have been able to defeat the nazis if their army had been a buncha woke DEI soy-boys?"
What percentage of the vote did Reform get in Scotland and Wales, respectively?
There are relatively fewer of them than in England and Wales - we're waiting on the last list declaration to know the exact figures, they're currently in 3rd with 15 seats - but they exist and are predominantly older voters, a lot are ex Tories who've been radicalised and it's eaten into their vote but some are ex Labour or SNP.
At the moment the figures for seats are SNP 57, Labour 17, Reform 15, Green 13 Conservative 11, Lib dem 9. The Tories are down 16 seats so that gives you some idea of the effect Reform has had on them.
Reform couldn't win any constituency seat, they have only taken list seats. The Greens won two constituency seats with the rest coming from the lists. The 7 seats on the Highland regional list are yet to declare.
No matter that he's been dead for over 30 years ... 🙃
“There really is a wolf this time! Why won’t anyone believe me???”
SNP 58
Labour 17
Reform 17
Green 15
Conservative 12
Lib Dem 10
They snuck up to joint 2nd - but a 73- 56 victory for the pro- Independence parties.
The SNP went down 6 but the Greens went up 6 so conservation of indy votes but leaning more left.
Labour went down 4 and the Lib dems up 6 - so the more liberal end of Unionism did well.
(Labour ran a hideous social conservative leaning manifesto so I'd put the Scottish Lib Dems to the left of them)
Scottish elections constituency vote share
•SNP: 38.2%
•Labour: 19.2%
•Reform: 15.8%
•Scottish Greens: 2.3%
•Conservatives: 11.8%
•LibDem: 11.4%
•Independent: 0.8%
•Alliance to Liberate Scotland: 0.2%
•Scottish Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition: 0.1%
•Scottish Common Party: 0.1%
•Workers Party of Britain: 0.1%
The Greens stand very few constituency candidates as they concentrate on list votes - so look at the regional vote share below for their popularity.
Scottish elections regional vote share
•SNP: 27.2%
•Labour: 16%
•Reform: 16.6%
•Scottish Greens: 14%
•Conservative: 11.8%
•LibDem: 9.4%
•Alliance to Liberate Scotland: 0.8%
•Scottish Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition: 0%
•Scottish Common Party: 0.1%
•Workers Party of Britain: 0.1%
Regional vote is probably the best indicator of how popular a party is.
As the person who got us on this tangent, I'll reiterate that my desired topic was not whether the left is right or wrong to describe Reform as fascist, but the possibility of people who consciously regard themselves as opposed to fascism, voting for parties that are effectively fascist.
It DOES assume, as a premise that groups like Reform are fascist. My own view is they do fit the textbook "18th Brumaire As Farce" definition of fascism, but that's not the same thing as saying they pose the same sorta material threat as the 1930s parties and regimes did. It's possible that Reform has just coasted in on a 'trow-da-bums-out mood across the island, and after a guaranteed gong-show of bad governance and botched mic-drops at various regional levels, will be reduced back to their previous stature, wholly discredited as the possible ditect inheritors of power at Westminster.
That's how I've seen it played out with third-party far-right groups elsewhere, in any case. As an example for those interested, it's pretty much what happened to Reform's Canadian namesake and the namesake's spawn-parties from the late 1980s to the early 2000s, eventually having to fold and merge back into a broader conservative brokerage-party, more resembling, at least in structure and demographics, the old parties that ran under the name "Conservative".
Short answer: British Nationalism is a hell of a drug.
There is a proportion of Scots who see themselves as British rather than Scottish, and who buy into exactly the same nonsense as their English counterparts. There's also the Orange Order types who would historically have voted Conservative & Unionist, and religious conservatives who *really* hate LGBTQ+ people. Heck, there's a small but significant minority who want to scrap the Scottish Parliament and go back to direct rule from Westminster. Some people just really like the taste of boot.
I do not know who you are talking about, but it clearly is not me. I know what fascism is and what Right politics are and how to correctly name them.
Glorying in violence, trying to close down journalism and promoting nepotism are all signs of fascism.
LHM ....
The average I've not (yet) seen is the vote share across constituencies where parties stood. That would also be a more reasonable estimate of support for smaller parties which don't stand in every constituency, though noting that the selection of constituencies to stand in would be guided by local knowledge of where that part might do best.
I was particularly pleased that the Labour guy in my ward, who is a really sound human being, won with some ease. He may have benefited from a personal vote, and in this particular ward, a vote for Green would have helped the fascists.
It seems if you are right wing, you are a facist.
Does that mean if you are left wing you are a communist?
But take heart, people are fickle. They'll get disillusioned as they always do with Reform (or any party in power) and by the time the next national election comes around people will have it out of their system.
But do we call some of those communists?
What is additionally annoying about MAGA and Reform is they are lead by people who are basically espousing facism, but trying to pretend they are not.
Key characteristics being: fundamental disrespect for democracy as a system, (often demonstrated through corrupt practices), attempts to seriously restrict the human rights of subsections of the population (often but not always expressed via racism, misogyny and religious bigotry) chauvinism masquerading as patriotism, and scapegoating of minorities for any given national problem (such as poor infrastructure, depressed economy etc).
In power such parties drift with greater or lesser speed toward tyranny - as you can see Trump doing or Orban attempted.
They are much bigger threat to the future of the country than, say, the Conservative Party - *because* they don’t respect democracy.
As you may recall, Hitler was elected.
No, that's a massive exaggeration. The far right gets called fascist. Whether there's a non-fascist far-right is a discussion that can be had, but no-one's calling old school one-nation Tories fascists.
I don't know if Reform is fascist or fascist adjacent; it's a matter of interpretation of their policies and definitions. They certainly are fascist friendly - whenever Reformers gather on social media calls for political control of the justice system and sanctions against political opponents follow. There are plenty of Reform types out there who would see teachers imprisoned for using trans kids' preferred pronouns for example.
My best hope here is that the real head bangers float off to Restore or Advance or whatever the "we hate everyone who's not white, cis and straight and Muslims even they're all of those" party du jour is and leave Reform as a sort of Nasty Tory party. Then the right wing vote gets split between Tory, Reform and Full Fash and the rest of us can get on with electing governments which support - wait for it - liberal democracy.
Just to add, venerating the leader is also not a great sign. If you have ever lived in a dictatorship for any period of time (I lived in various as a child owing to my Dad’s job) you tend to see massive *permanent* images of them all over the place and large amount of public buildings named after them. Trump is very on trend for this. I believe a gold statue of him has just been unveiled on a golf course.
That would do nicely, but is it likely? The Green leader in Wales has said that his party is open to conversations with Plaid Cymru as regards the new government, but the Greens have just two seats.
Fascist Let’s see now. Putting people in detention centres (concentration camps) before they are deported. The numbers they claim they will deport are higher than the number of illegals, so they are will to deport people with citizenship. Take women’s rights back to at least the Victorian age. That is just for starters. They are fascist
(bold mine)
Political analyst Peter Kellner points out that the seat share for Reform in England is actually down on last year
https://kellnerp.substack.com/p/yesterdays-elections-the-story-so?
Even one seat is one too many for these snake oil and scapegoating purveyors but if they are mostly eating the Tory vote then this could be repairable in England by Labour stopping their policy of aping Reform.
How the older cadre of right- wing voters are getting poisoned with racism and attacks on trans people, disabled people and neurodivergent people is a separate question.
It's dangerous because first past the post can produce a UK government on a minority vote where due to the demographics of voting these voters are over-represented.
But it's important not to fall into 'doomerism'. It looks bad and as these voters have become more racist and 'Facebook poisoned' and are electing representatives to match, it is bad but when you come down to it, it's mainly the old Tory vote and it can be beaten.
Thank you! We shall, of course, see in due time...
I believe they have said they want to be a minority goverment. As a voter in Wales I think it is the wrong thing to do. I would have liked them to go with Labour which gives them the majority they need to stop Reform. As it stands Reform can cause no end of problems.