Ecumenism!
Gallovidian
Shipmate
Having struggled where I last lived to get together an effective 'Churches Together' group (we did get as far as organising an annual Civic Praise event as part of the town's carnival week), one of the things I like about where I am now is that the three churches actually seem to get on and cooperate quite naturally - so much so that while our minister is away in the states for 2 weeks, the local Baptist minister is available for pastoral care (along with a neighbouring CofS minister for anyone who can only talk to a presbyterian!). Every week, our notices (sorry intimations!) include all the services in the town, and there are regular joint services where there is only one Sunday service for everyone. As congregations shrink, and expenses of keeping church buildings going increase, I'd like to think this is paving the way to even greater cooperation and mutual support in the future. For example, in a small town, with perhaps 70 regular churchgoers across all denominations, do we actually still need 3 church buildings?
What are other people's experiences, hopes, fears?
What are other people's experiences, hopes, fears?
Comments
I wonder whether it is time to take another look at the churches of Pakistan, North India and South India and see what they can teach us about ecumenism, particularly in a context where Christianity is a minority faith.
Thinking more broadly, we really need to radically rethink"how we do Christianity" in Britain. But how we do that with so much tradition, structures, buildings, legal stuff, different understandings of ministry or eucharist ... it seems an impossible "ask".
It seems iniquitous, given the low Sunday attendance, to have two or three churches holding simultaneous services in a small town, maintaining costly buildings.
Yes, clergy can make or break local ‘Churches Together’. What has for many years been a strong commitment in my town was broken by the C of E priest last year when he refused to attend the Good Friday Act of Witness alongside the Methodists because they had voted to permit the marriage of same sex partners. And his PCC felt they had to follow his lead, thus ending many years of happy co-operation and collaboration.
The churches around Our Place all seem to get on fairly well together - at least, the ministers do (they have regular group meetings) - but *united* services are few and far between, and not especially well-attended anyway.
Our next-door parish has recently joined another, giving them a total population of around 21000, and two large churches - one is mediaeval (much restored) and the other a typically grandiose late-19thC barn.
They have just one priest now, but still manage a 930am and an 11am Eucharist on most Sundays, one in each church. Total attendance over the two services is now around 30...and one has to question the viability of retaining two buildings.
Both have had considerable amounts of £££ spent on them in recent years, to provide kitchen/WC/office facilities/new seating, but how they manage to afford to keep the buildings in good condition, and pay a full-time stipendiary priest, I know not.
On the face of it, there doesn't seem to be much scope for sharing one or other (or both) of the buildings with another denomination, but, if there's a will, there's often a way.
Our Place was asked, some years ago, if we could accommodate a Mar Thoma congregation, which was beginning to appear in Our Town. We were happy to oblige - they could have used the church on a Sunday afternoon or evening - but they went elsewhere, mainly owing to the difficulty of finding parking spaces for a gathered congregation on a Sunday!
HOWEVER outside church thge local Food Banks are run and staffed by members from all the local churches. Ecumenism in action.
Still, it's something positive, I guess. The Week Of Prayer For Christian Unity (an oxymoron if ever there was!) is about to begin, but, frankly, I can never see the point of it.
I agree with @Baptist Trainfan that these things work best in small towns or in well-defined communities within larger conurbations.
There was a good pulpit-sharing initiative which involved the URCs too.
My concerns are similar to those of @Arethosemyfeet, that it might all be too late. By and large church attendance is in free-fall decline and there may not be the critical mass to support joint initiatives or the sharing of premises.
In my own affiliation people wax hot and cold about ecumenism. It's a dirty word to some people.
I tend to think it works best where there's a common focus such as Food Banks or similar community initiatives that don't particularly depend on particular theological positions or 'churchmanships'.
I go to an annual ecumenical conference which I enjoy but I'm not sure how effective it actually is ecumenically.
There is some exchange of the pulpit between the Lutherans and Episcopalian ministries.
We all participate in a Day Camp for the kids. But I personally feel that is one area where I wish we Lutherans could have a separate program. To me, when it is everyone's responsibility, no one does follow up. Half the kids are from families that are unchurched. While we hand out Bibles to the new kids at the end of the camp, no one takes the time to follow up with those families to at least welcome them to continue the experience.
On the other hand, I am currently working with a congregation that is Lutheran/Presbyterian. Recently, a rural Methodist congregation lost their minister. I think the two congregations could join together to form a single parish. The biggest question has to do with hierarchy. However, I know of other congregations in rural areas that have joined together. Time will tell.
Thing is, nobody much likes the other choices either. You can have different churches sharing the same building, but that means that someone gets the "good time slot" and someone else gets the "bad time slot". Or possibly you rotate time slots each week, so nobody knows whether they are coming or going.
Or you can have different churches amalgamate and share services, but whilst we pray each week for Christian unity, we think we're praying for unity by resolving our differences, not "unity" by being forced by circumstance to pretend that they aren't important.
Our churches and their clergy get on well enough, but little worship happens together despite the efforts of those keen on doing so, while a lot of groups of volunteers include members from them all.
Behind the scenes, there are people in every church denomination who seem to think that those who attend elsewhere are not ‘real’ Christians, and their own way of worship is the only valid one.
Until such views are challenged, it is unlikely that ecumenism will make much progress.
These days, similar interfaith groups have allied to support Stop Gender-Based Violence movements, as the violence against women and children along with transphobia and homophobia has intensified. Churches worked together during the pandemic to help those without access to healthcare or social grants because they were illegal migrants or asylum-seekers.
The cynic in me observes that this is probably due to a lack of doctrinal differences (such as whether or not the Mass is valid, if the priest fails to wear a maniple), but yes, good examples of Doing It Right - all the more necessary as we continue to experience The End Times...as our fathers did before us, of course
Indeed. I was, as is my wont, indulging in whimsy, but it's the practical stuff that really matters...
Matthew 25 vv31-46 spring to mind.
I remember trying to persuade a group of fairly traditional Baptists (not my own church) to attend an ecumenical service where the preacher would be the Roman Catholic bishop. They were very wary, but were prepared to go because they knew and trusted me.
After the service they said, "Wow - he preached the Gospel!"
I was recently asked to lead a 'Ninian Moment' - short ecumenical act of prayer each week, linked to the Whithorn Way pilgrims route. Afterwards one of the organisers said 'Thank you, that was lovely - but another time can you please not use a responsorial prayer as it's not what some people expect!" I'd thought - from experience elsewhere - that part of the idea was to help people experience different styles of prayer and understand other traditions, so had planned it in keeping with my own preferred style. But apparently the foundational agreement for the sessions was that everything should be very 'neutral' - a Bible Reading and a simple 'monologue' prayer!
Amusingly, she also remarked that she had been puzzled as to why - in the middle of a very wet December - we were praying for rain, but then realised the response was actually 'Bring in your *reign* O God'
I'm not familiar with this. But I'd normally agree with you about ecumenical events enabling people to experience different ways of worship. Conversely, if there isa set format, they should have told you!
The whole thing TBH sounds just a little bit too introverted and "cosy" to me - but that may be an unfair comment.
(I have a working class, secular background and my first experience of an Anglican service was a Florence Nightingale service at Westminster Abbey in my pre-Christian mid 20s, where a lit lamp was processed down the aisle and put on the altar!)
There are such people. I suspect that there are rather more people who are happy to assume that other Christians are "validly" worshipping God, but they're doing it in a way that isn't as good, or isn't to their taste.
Deep dish pizza is a perfectly valid food. I understand that there are a number of people who particularly enjoy it. I'm not one of them. I'm happy for you to be fed with deep dish pizza, if that's what you enjoy, but unless I'm starving, and deep dish pizza is the only food on offer, I won't be joining you. That seems to have come out as a surprisingly good analogy.
I agree with @Heavenlyannie about "practical" endeavours. We can agree that, for example, the local food bank is a good thing, and work together to support it without having to agree on anything else. We just have to agree that feeding hungry people is a worthwhile effort, and then get on with the work.
Yes, and it makes sense to advertise clearly beforehand what is to happen at joint services, especially if (for example) the Anglo-Catholics are *doing their thing* and having Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, with bells and incense all complete, got up regardless of expense!
We call that Bells and Smells.
A fair comment!
OTOH, local knowledge might give people a clue (Our Place is the only *bells & smells* Place in town), and I think I'd have an idea what to expect at tomorrow's service at our local charismatic-evo Place...
I wonder if the Northern city to which Gamma Gamaliel refers is Leeds? I am fortunate enough to be chair of trustees of Thrive Leeds based in Chapel Allerton which now includes the local URC as well as Baptist, Methodist and Anglican churches.
We continue to thrive and are developing some new youth work in a more economically deprived part of the parish, with a new (small) modular building about to be placed on the URC's lawn to act as a base for the young volunteers
At our Methodist church we have the same demographics and challenges that so many do, but Thrive is a beacon of light and a big part of the local ecumenical glue.
....or the Anglo-Catholics to jump up and down to a praise band while shouting Alleluia in the middle of Lent!
(Fixed code, DT)
Indeed so.
Would be Unimaginable Outrage!!
Well spotted!
It was indeed.
@Gallovidian - in which case we probably know some of the same people or have in the same church service at some time or other. We moved from Leeds in 2007.
@greenrayedlimpet - glad the initiative continues to thrice. Give my regards to the Leeds 'loiners'.
I left a chunk of myself behind when I moved away.
Couldn't they shout it very solemnly?
Perhaps solemnly shouting *Eggs and Bacon* instead of the A-word?
It certainly is a small world! I moved to Boston Spa in 2003 when my mum became ill, prior to that I worshipped mainly at St Edmunds, Roundhay and Bridge Street Elim. I was still working in Chapel A up until 2006 when hubby and I moved to Scotland; I worked in residential care and sometimes accompanied clients to local church services.
In Lent?
It may reinforce their distaste for the other form of worship rather than enhance it though. I remember with a wince when the BCP evening prayer was foisted upon an unsuspecting group of people from local churches in an attempt at ecumenism. Their faces told the tale.
This is a good point. There is a tendency to think we do things so rightly that these outsiders will be really taken by how rightly we do things.
These outsiders may in fact be outsiders because they know exactly what we do and don't care for it.
And so rather than do either
You do something else that neither likes at all!
By contrast, when I was a child the local Baptist, Methodist and Anglican churches used to do united services during Lent. Each Wednesday evening a short service would be held in one of the three churches, including a sermon from one of the clergy who was not from that church. It was pretty much a standard representation of normal worship in that church (OK, ours was Compline which probably wasn't familiar to anyone!)
A service sheet would be printed that included an explanation of what was going to happen and the reasons behind it. There was of course an understanding that no-one had to do anything they didn't want to, it was fine to just watch and listen.
As a 7 year old I absolutely loved these, probably as much for the novelty value as anything. And they were well attended. It helped that the three churches did other things together at regular intervals, such as concerts and plays.
These are not specially laid on ecumenical events. They are the normal services for those days using whatever format/liturgy is used in that place on that day.
Of course it is made easier in that the two biggest churches (CofS and Baptist) actually have very similar worship styles anyway... the main difference being that we have rows of pews and the Baptists sit around tables with a mug of coffee... but the order of service ('hymn sandwich'), choice of hymns, style of preaching etc are all really very similar!