might do the Strict Baptists good to experience bells-n-smells, or do the Pentecostals good to participate in Divine Liturgy.
....or the Anglo-Catholics to jump up and down to a praise band while shouting Alleluia in the middle of Lent!
(Fixed code, DT)
It's only my experience - obviously - but in my experience that's far more likely than the reverse (though maybe not in the middle of Lent).
I must have said on here before the famous occasion where some denizens of Pusey House went on a field trip - we're going back 20 years here - to 'another Oxford church' (the furthest ConEvo shore) to see what a service there was like, also to 'yet another Oxford church' another week for a more carevo experience.
I don't think it was really anyone's cup of tea - why would it be? Otherwise they'd have been worshipping there - but we went.
On the other hand not only were the visits literally never reciprocated - and these were all churches with sizeable student followings, many of whom we knew - but an acquaintance of mine from the first church quite seriously offered to pray for our deliverance from Anglo-Catholicism...
I would never have thought of Forward in Faith Anglo Catholicism as being admirably open and outward looking to the rest of the Church, but in comparison to some of the other byways of Anglicanism it really, really was.
So it is in some respects, but there is, alas! a smell of deceased equines to be contended with...
I think I've said already that Our Place's contribution to a week-long series of services (possibly *Thy Kingdom Come*?) was An Hour Of Prayer Before The Blessed Sacrament, with some silences, a couple of short Bible readings, three hymns, and a whiff of incense.
The Baptists enjoyed it, but the charismatic-evos were conspicuous by their absence...
Those of us who attend charismatic churches could point to similar responses from people with more traditional backgrounds, with suggestions that we are deluded, brainwashed or faking it. It is not a one way street. And it is very sad that some Christians can’t acknowledge their brothers and sisters, regardless of tradition. If we can’t love one another, how can we love the rest of the world.
Those of us who attend charismatic churches could point to similar responses from people with more traditional backgrounds, with suggestions that we are deluded, brainwashed or faking it. It is not a one way street. And it is very sad that some Christians can’t acknowledge their brothers and sisters, regardless of tradition. If we can’t love one another, how can we love the rest of the world.
Yes, you're quite right. In fairness to myself, if not to others, I've been to services at charismatic-evo churches which I've actually quite enjoyed - possibly having come from that background sometime in the last century...
One occasion was the licensing of the previous Vicar-but-one at our local char-evo parish. It was a Communion service, with our then Suffragan Bishop presiding, and all was done in a most seemly and edifying manner, complete with lots of modern worship songs as well as a couple of trad hymns.
One abiding memory is the incredibly sour look (as in sucking Lemons) on the face of our Churchwarden, who clearly wished himself away from it all (he was one who regarded the Blessed Virgin Mary as his Co-Redemptrix, so far away from the C of E had he strayed...).
As you rightly say, we need to acknowledge our brothers and sisters, regardless of tradition. I doubt if God bothers much about the details...
I have encountered evangelical anglicans who pray for the salvation of those in the neighbouring anglo-catholic parish, but never the other way round... generally a slightly pitying look tinged with mild amusement is about as far as it goes.
Well, I personally don’t find pity and being laughed at particularly loving.
No, indeed. By all means pray for your neighbouring churches, but remember that they're labourers in the Lord's vineyard, just as you are, and ask for his blessing on the way they do things...
Trouble is, some charismatics are 'deluded, brainwashed or faking it' just as some Anglo-Catholics are probably in it just for the tat and spectacle or some Orthodox because they happen to have come from a country where Orthodox Christianity is the default option.
I generally think it's best to judge any tradition by its best exemplars not its worst. I'm in no big hurry to go back to charismatic style worship myself but that doesn't mean I don't understand the appeal or think badly of those who engage in it - although I draw the line at some of the extreme practitioners and prosperity-gospel snake-oil merchants.
But then, there are insufferable hyperdox chauvinists and whackoes in my own Tradition.
At any rate, ecumenical worship can be quite beige and lowest common denominator-ish.
I'd quite like to be confronted with a BCP service at an ecumenical gathering but can see that it wouldn't be to everyone's taste. Thing is, I'm not sure what would be to everyone's taste. Whatever we do isn't going to go down very well with someone or other.
I think those instances described above where people have been told what to expect are probably the best way to approach these things but then we run the risk of it becoming a bit of a lecture with prayers, liturgy and hymns attached.
I think visits to see various Christian traditions operating in their 'natural habitat' as it were are a good thing. I remember a group of us from the Baptist church I was part of visiting the RCs at their invitation for the 'Stations of the Cross.' On another occasion we attended a memorable Remembrance Service at York Minster.
I think those visits 'worked' because they were natural and organic and part of something that was happening any way.
I remember an Orthodox priest saying how a group of Quakers turned up at the Liturgy one Sunday. They were doing the rounds of churches of different traditions to get a flavour of what they were all about. He was struck how the Friends 'got' what was going on even though they came from a non-sacramental tradition. He felt that they intuitively sussed it rather more than visitors they'd had from traditions one might expect to be closer in terms of style and ethos.
Thing is, I'm not sure what would be to everyone's taste.
But surely that's the point - Christians need to experience, just for once, the ways that others do things. You don't get that in watered-down-let's-all-be-happy-be-a-bit-bored ecumenical services. And surely our faith isn't about "what we like", at least sometimes?
When exploring ecumenism, it isn't just the theological or denominational differences or similarities that stand out. We had an ecumenical conference years ago on Women in the Church and talked about sexism. An Anglican woman priest said to me in some surprise that she'd always assumed Roman Catholic laywomen had the worst of it but her own experience of being unheard or slighted or overlooked was much worse. The most equitable and good-listening church for those women present was the Seventh Day Adventist. What we all had in common (Congregational, Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Anglican) was the exhausting amount of emotional and informal labour expected from us, pacifying clergy, propping up clergy, defusing conflict in the choir, taking on unpaid counselling, intervening in crises over those in stand-offs, giving parishioners lifts, having to organise meals at the last moment, taking soup to the sick, countingthe week's tithes or donations, rushing out to buy loo paper before a workshop. Those men present said sheepishly that they had no objection to helping out in pastoral care but that they Had Sermons To Write.
Well, I personally don’t find pity and being laughed at particularly loving.
No, indeed. By all means pray for your neighbouring churches, but remember that they're labourers in the Lord's vineyard, just as you are, and ask for his blessing on the way they do things...
Ah, TEAPOT theology - Those Evil Awful People Over There (thanks to the Old Ship for that one).
Pretty much every church is secretly convinced that their way is, if not the only way, certainly the best way, and God's personal preference. It takes effort to learn about other traditions, but it's worth it.
My former church was charismatic Anglican, deliberately created by the Bishop 30-odd years ago to explore different ways to be church. No written liturgy, contemporary worship band, and our building was a former fire station (in fact for the first 20 years we didn't even have a building).
We shared the building with a Pentecostal church who made us look like Quakers by comparison. We had several joint services, and also took part in services with other local churches, from Baptist to RC. Not as often as I would have liked, but we were certainly open to learning from other traditions. We even ended up with Taize chants during communion.
It's one of the things I miss most about living elsewhere. Where I am now, it's pretty much 'you in your small corner and I in mine'.
Both those responses are not how Christian communities should treat each other, though. The opening post discusses paving the way to greater cooperation and mutual support in the future and if we are going to do that we need trust and respect each other not scorn each other in a variety of unhelpful and hurtful ways.
So, how do we build trust and respect?
Both those responses are not how Christian communities should treat each other, though. The opening post discusses paving the way to greater cooperation and mutual support in the future and if we are going to do that we need trust and respect each other not scorn each other in a variety of unhelpful and hurtful ways.
So, how do we build trust and respect?
I think one of your problems is that all churches contain refugees from other types of churches. There's always going to be an element who have reason to distrust churches which look very much like what they've come from.
I may have mentioned that I get a nasty squicky feeling whenever Be still for the presence of the Lord is used, even if (as it often is) it's used as a communion hymn in a thoroughly non-Charismatic setting. Baggage.
A lot of these negative reactions probably come from ignorance. We fear what we do not know and cover that up in a variety of ways from ridicule to outright aggression. And - truth be told - there are things in most traditions which are actually quite absurd to the casual observer, yet have become precious to those on the inside. Sometimes we need to learn to laugh at ourselves, and to discern what is actually meaningful and upbuilding in our traditions, and what is just a cultural irrelevance. Interacting with Christians form other backgrounds can be quite helpful in that way - if someone asks 'Why do you do that?' it can be quite revealing, and sometimes you have to just say 'You know, I'm really not sure; it's just how we always do it!'. On the other side, if you engage with a different tradition with an open mind, you often realise some of the things you thought were absurd or irrelevant (or even harmful!) actually serve a very real purpose and maybe shine a light on something you had previously missed.
I think one of your problems is that all churches contain refugees from other types of churches. There's always going to be an element who have reason to distrust churches which look very much like what they've come from.
That's a very valid point; my own experience of an abusive pentecostal type church means I tend to by cynical about that style of worship, and avoid coming into contact with it - even though, dispassionately, there are elements I actually miss and - without the controlling overtones - could actually be very liberating and upbuilding.
I think one of your problems is that all churches contain refugees from other types of churches. There's always going to be an element who have reason to distrust churches which look very much like what they've come from.
That's a very valid point; my own experience of an abusive pentecostal type church means I tend to by cynical about that style of worship, and avoid coming into contact with it - even though, dispassionately, there are elements I actually miss and - without the controlling overtones - could actually be very liberating and upbuilding.
Yes, there are churches I think of as communities of the walking wounded. Many of us who are queer have had to stay in the closet for decades, others remember being shamed for mental-health difficulties or invisible disabilities, all those who never experienced any pastoral care after bereavement or divorce, those who only knew their home church as abusive or judgmental, those silenced as women or non-binary. Finding somewhere kinder or more inclusive isn't easy and it makes sense to me that those who finally think they have discovered a safe-enough sanctuary don't care to be reminded of the places they fled.
Yes, I agree with all this discussion about different baggage. My own baggage comes from the infamous local parish church split, which made it to the broadsheets and TV. I have a friend with bipolar disorder who was hurt in a traditional Anglican setting by literally being told to their face that they were disruptive to the church service and not welcome there. Yet my charismatic church embraced them (and bipolar me) fully despite our quirks.
On of my first experiences of an anglo-catholic church was shortly after leaving university when I visited a friend in a nearby town. I was initially taken aback by how many 'odd' people were in the congregation... but on reflection realised that the Church of Jesus Christ *should* be a safe refuge for the hurting, the imperfect and the eccentric.
Conversely the pentecostal church I mentioned treated anyone with mental health issues as demonic, rebellious and lacking in faith (otherwise they would have been healed long ago).
You’ll be pleased to know that my church does not consider those of us with mental health challenges as possessed or even ‘odd’. Instead, we are invited to contribute our knowledge and faith to the church community. I lecture in health and social care and was invited to give a talk to the elders on mental health and provide them with materials to improve their knowledge and support. I have also spoken about mental health to the congregation from the front of the church and am regular sought after for advice.
Churches do vary a lot within denominations and styles.
When exploring ecumenism, it isn't just the theological or denominational differences or similarities that stand out. We had an ecumenical conference years ago on Women in the Church and talked about sexism. An Anglican woman priest said to me in some surprise that she'd always assumed Roman Catholic laywomen had the worst of it but her own experience of being unheard or slighted or overlooked was much worse. The most equitable and good-listening church for those women present was the Seventh Day Adventist. What we all had in common (Congregational, Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Anglican) was the exhausting amount of emotional and informal labour expected from us, pacifying clergy, propping up clergy, defusing conflict in the choir, taking on unpaid counselling, intervening in crises over those in stand-offs, giving parishioners lifts, having to organise meals at the last moment, taking soup to the sick, countingthe week's tithes or donations, rushing out to buy loo paper before a workshop. Those men present said sheepishly that they had no objection to helping out in pastoral care but that they Had Sermons To Write.
Yes. Women run parishes .... no matter what the man say.
You’ll be pleased to know that my church does not consider those of us with mental health challenges as possessed or even ‘odd’. Instead, we are invited to contribute our knowledge and faith to the church community. I lecture in health and social care and was invited to give a talk to the elders on mental health and provide them with materials to improve their knowledge and support. I have also spoken about mental health to the congregation from the front of the church and am regular sought after for advice.
Churches do vary a lot within denominations and styles.
That sounds like my kind of church, I'd make a beeline for it and hope to learn a great deal.
Our experience of worship is often like our experience of other languages.
Most of us will have one language which we function in,not only from the point of view of vocabulary and grammar but from so many cultural attachments and norms also.
For many of us everything else simply appears 'foreign' and while we are generally able to let the 'foreigners' do what they want, almost instinctively we relate to the language and culture which we know and within ourselves 'know' that this is the correct way to do things.
In the UK it is considered polite after one has finished a course of a meal to put your knife and fork on the plate at 6pm time straight up and down. In Germany it is considered 'correct' to place the knife and fork 3.45 time across the plate from right to left
During the Second World War it was not unknown for people to be given a meal in order to see in which position they would lay their cutlery which would then give a good indication as to where there were 'really from'.
Thing is, I'm not sure what would be to everyone's taste.
But surely that's the point - Christians need to experience, just for once, the ways that others do things. You don't get that in watered-down-let's-all-be-happy-be-a-bit-bored ecumenical services. And surely our faith isn't about "what we like", at least sometimes?
Sure. Which I thought was implicit in what I'd posted but I obviously didn't make myself clear.
My question was rhetorical and I think my post would have been clearer without it.
Anyhow ... on other points that have been raised since ... yes, I think churches within particular traditions, movements and denominations can and do vary a lot in attitudes and approach and none are monolithic.
It's always best not to generalise.
It's possible to find unhealthy and controlling environments in churches of all stripes. Conversely, some that one might expect to be like that are sometimes surprisingly open.
But appearances can be deceptive.
I've had a conversation just this evening on this very point. I was surprised to find that someone I know is on the worship team of a church which is perceived - rightly or wrongly - to strongly support a particular political party. This chap isn't a member there as such but is a member of a different political party to the one this church is commonly perceived to favour.
He insisted that things aren't as clear cut as they might appear from the outside. Granted. But the rest of us felt he was being naive ...
I'm sure there are a wider range of views within that congregation than one might imagine. Even so ... 😉
Anyhow, I s'pose all I'm saying is that we do have to beware of stereotyping particular congregations, movements or groups.
I recall when I was a recent graduate, I belonged to a home Bible Study group in a fairly straight-down-the-line evangelical anglican church. Just down the road was an archetypal Anglo-Catholic church, which was generally regarded with varying degrees of suspicion to outright horror by most of our congregation. Somehow, a young guy from said a-c church started coming to our study group, and I remember being really surprised at how genuinely 'spiritual' he was, and how knowledgeable about the Bible - it did a lot to challenge my prejudices at the time, and those of others in the group. It was interesting unpacking some of the 'jargon' on both sides of the 'divide' and seeing how much common ground there was under the surface. Still think he was very brave!
I think that's a good example @Gallovidian and I'm sure we could find other instances among Shipmates of occasions where people from traditions other than those we espouse (or espoused) turned out to confound expectations.
I wonder whether it is time to take another look at the churches of Pakistan, North India and South India and see what they can teach us about ecumenism, particularly in a context where Christianity is a minority faith.
They were the product of processes more like the formation of the URC than ecumenism as currently practiced.
I think the danger at this point is that the kinds of churches thinking about it are already failing to reproduce themselves organically in any way, and the result is likely to be a larger denomination that continues to become smaller - which postpones any discussion of why they are shrinking.
Thing is, I'm not sure what would be to everyone's taste.
But surely that's the point - Christians need to experience, just for once, the ways that others do things. You don't get that in watered-down-let's-all-be-happy-be-a-bit-bored ecumenical services. And surely our faith isn't about "what we like", at least sometimes?
Sure. Which I thought was implicit in what I'd posted but I obviously didn't make myself clear.
My question was rhetorical and I think my post would have been clearer without it.
Anyhow ... on other points that have been raised since ... yes, I think churches within particular traditions, movements and denominations can and do vary a lot in attitudes and approach and none are monolithic.
It's always best not to generalise.
It's possible to find unhealthy and controlling environments in churches of all stripes. Conversely, some that one might expect to be like that are sometimes surprisingly open.
But appearances can be deceptive.
I've had a conversation just this evening on this very point. I was surprised to find that someone I know is on the worship team of a church which is perceived - rightly or wrongly - to strongly support a particular political party. This chap isn't a member there as such but is a member of a different political party to the one this church is commonly perceived to favour.
He insisted that things aren't as clear cut as they might appear from the outside. Granted. But the rest of us felt he was being naive ...
I'm sure there are a wider range of views within that congregation than one might imagine. Even so ... 😉
Anyhow, I s'pose all I'm saying is that we do have to beware of stereotyping particular congregations, movements or groups.
Indeed. In every Christian church there are Christians, but it’s not for us to judge which are and which are not. God only knows.
I do believe that Jesus sees every church building as his house.
Even as someone who is now very sacramental in approach and whose affiliation practices the consecration of buildings and sacred space, I'd add the caveat that the people themselves are becoming the 'house of the Lord.'
The buildings themselves cannot contain the Almighty.
Nor can individuals or groups.
Sure, Big O Orthodox Christians have a more 'definite' or 'concrete' (not in buildings terms!) view of the Church than those who hold to an 'invisible Church' position but that doesn't presuppose that God isn't present or working in and through Christian churches and communities of all stripes or indeed beyond Christianity itself.
Our local 'Churches Together' has organised a Service for Christian Unity (theme: the Good Samaritan) this afternoon at the Salvation Army church. I can't attend because of a family event but I went a few years ago when the same type of event was also at the Sally Army.
I think hardly anyone from other churches were there. I was hoping for some Brass Band trad worship but of course it was an electric guitar led band. Very friendly and laid back.
Are there any Salvation Army members on this Ship?
Sure, Big O Orthodox Christians have a more 'definite' or 'concrete' (not in buildings terms!) view of the Church than those who hold to an 'invisible Church' position but that doesn't presuppose that God isn't present or working in and through Christian churches and communities of all stripes or indeed beyond Christianity itself.
Increasingly in recent months, and particularly during Epiphany, I have reflected on Jesus' words about having other sheep who are not of this pasture, and the notion in Hebrews that God has spoken in many and various ways down the ages before speaking directly thro His Son. I see many common themes in other religions and philosophies which lead me to suppose that, as people reach out towards a divine being, they can be drawn to the same Truth which we believe to be revealed through the Jewish scriptures - perhaps not yet having the full revelation that we believe to be found only in the person of Jesus Christ, but still in their hearts being brought ever closer to Him.
The best of us still only see 'through a glass dimly' so who are we to say others will not also one day see face to face?
... While many of the churches that are (or seem to be) growing maintain their independence.
I don't know that there are that many growing churches that are completely independent - they are generally part of some kind of network.
Obviously there's parochialism everywhere; but an alternate explanation would be that these churches tend to view leadership very differently (for both good and sometimes ill), and part of the reason they form networks of their own is that they have forms that wouldn't easily be constructed within more traditional denominations (again this goes both ways).
Older union churches of various stripes weren't generally formed at a time when the constituent churches had started to dwindle and age - and if this is the underlying issue a merger wouldn't really address it.
I agree with what you have just written. I have often prepared for Catholic baptism or Communion those who have come from other Christian denominations or indeed from other faiths including Islam and Hinduism. To all of them I have tried to point out the riches of their original faith communities.
In this I have followed the Catholic catechism which teaches the following :
1260 since Christ died for all ,and since all are called to the same destiny, we must suppose that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. everyone who seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.
Wow, I think that quote really says a lot!
Our reading and sermon today were based on the story of Jonah, and while this was not a major thread of the preaching, I was struck by the fact that Nineveh was not a Jewish city, yet the people were open to the message of repentance and benefited from God's mercy... without any indication that they explicitly converted to Judaism. I believe we see similar ideas in various Biblical stories - eg Daniel's ministry in Babylon, the Magi, and Paul's message to the Athenians.
FatherInCharge tells he that he, along two others from Our Place, duly attended the *Christian Unity* prayer service last Thursday evening, but that several churches were (as far as he could tell) not represented at all.
OTOH, for the first time ever, it seems, the local Roman Catholic priest turned up, with two of his flock!
Nothing ecumenical this year in the town where I live, as the vicar has pulled out of Churches Together, leaving the Methodists to their own devices ( they are very open to all).
In the village where I worship the annual Covenant service was held yesterday in the Methodist Chapel as a united Anglican Methodist service, led by both ministers. The priest led the actual Communion part, thereby making it legal for Anglicans( though I think everyone who attended would have partaken anyway).
There were roughly equal numbers from both congregations present.
We had yesterday our first Ecumenical Service since November 2019. Numbers weren't great (and it was a foul evening) and mainly the "usual suspects" of "a certain age" attended. Nevertheless there was a good spread of churches including RC, hopefully we can build on that.
Ours was yesterday in a RC church. The people who put the service together picked God is working his purpose out which the resident guitarist and pianist were totally unable to play as it isn't in the repertoire of most RC churches. And it turns out there are more than two verses of A New Commandment ...... and the extras won't fit the tune without the assistance of a lump hammer and a crow bar. And the booklet was a mess with some hymns printed as prose!
Whoever said "If a thing is worth doing its worth doing badly" was very, very wrong. Chesterton BTW.
Ours was yesterday in a RC church. The people who put the service together picked God is working his purpose out which the resident guitarist and pianist were totally unable to play as it isn't in the repertoire of most RC churches. And it turns out there are more than two verses of A New Commandment ...... and the extras won't fit the tune without the assistance of a lump hammer and a crow bar. And the booklet was a mess with some hymns printed as prose!
Whoever said "If a thing is worth doing its worth doing badly" was very, very wrong. Chesterton BTW.
Oh dear. Lessons learned for next year, hopefully?
Mind you, IMHO God is walking his porpoise out is a hymn to be avoided at any time. Absolute dreck and dross...
Ours was yesterday in a RC church. The people who put the service together picked God is working his purpose out which the resident guitarist and pianist were totally unable to play as it isn't in the repertoire of most RC churches. And it turns out there are more than two verses of A New Commandment ...... and the extras won't fit the tune without the assistance of a lump hammer and a crow bar. And the booklet was a mess with some hymns printed as prose!
Whoever said "If a thing is worth doing its worth doing badly" was very, very wrong. Chesterton BTW.
Oh dear. Lessons learned for next year, hopefully?
Mind you, IMHO God is walking his porpoise out is a hymn to be avoided at any time. Absolute dreck and dross...
I love it, even if it is the only metrical hymn I'm aware of that the compilers of A&M felt the need to point as if it were a psalm. The relationship between meter and words is as that of ships passing in the night. In a blizzard.
Ours was yesterday in a RC church. The people who put the service together picked God is working his purpose out which the resident guitarist and pianist were totally unable to play as it isn't in the repertoire of most RC churches. And it turns out there are more than two verses of A New Commandment ...... and the extras won't fit the tune without the assistance of a lump hammer and a crow bar. And the booklet was a mess with some hymns printed as prose!
Whoever said "If a thing is worth doing its worth doing badly" was very, very wrong. Chesterton BTW.
Oh dear. Lessons learned for next year, hopefully?
Mind you, IMHO God is walking his porpoise out is a hymn to be avoided at any time. Absolute dreck and dross...
I love it, even if it is the only metrical hymn I'm aware of that the compilers of A&M felt the need to point as if it were a psalm. The relationship between meter and words is as that of ships passing in the night. In a blizzard.
O the tune is Fun - it's the words that are Rubbish. YMMV.
Ours was yesterday in a RC church. The people who put the service together picked God is working his purpose out which the resident guitarist and pianist were totally unable to play as it isn't in the repertoire of most RC churches. And it turns out there are more than two verses of A New Commandment ...... and the extras won't fit the tune without the assistance of a lump hammer and a crow bar. And the booklet was a mess with some hymns printed as prose!
Whoever said "If a thing is worth doing its worth doing badly" was very, very wrong. Chesterton BTW.
Oh dear. Lessons learned for next year, hopefully?
Mind you, IMHO God is walking his porpoise out is a hymn to be avoided at any time. Absolute dreck and dross...
I love it, even if it is the only metrical hymn I'm aware of that the compilers of A&M felt the need to point as if it were a psalm. The relationship between meter and words is as that of ships passing in the night. In a blizzard.
O the tune is Fun - it's the words that are Rubbish. YMMV.
My wife went to boarding school where it was sung at the final service of every term, but where the pupils sang
"When the Mas and the Pas turn up in their cars
and take us all home for tea."
ISTM there are at least three somewhat separate issues circulating in this thread; namely ecumenism as it pertains to churches increasingly working together and sharing things together including, ultimately, their name, the cordial, arms length, ecumenism that isn't intended to lead to any kind of joint future destination and then the survival of shrinking - sometimes rural - churches.
I've started a separate thread specifically about shrinking church congregations, but inevitably it will crop up here as well.
My hope for this thread was that it would focus chiefly on hopes for future collaboration etc., but always interesting to hear what is happening here and now.
Comments
It's only my experience - obviously - but in my experience that's far more likely than the reverse (though maybe not in the middle of Lent).
I must have said on here before the famous occasion where some denizens of Pusey House went on a field trip - we're going back 20 years here - to 'another Oxford church' (the furthest ConEvo shore) to see what a service there was like, also to 'yet another Oxford church' another week for a more carevo experience.
I don't think it was really anyone's cup of tea - why would it be? Otherwise they'd have been worshipping there - but we went.
On the other hand not only were the visits literally never reciprocated - and these were all churches with sizeable student followings, many of whom we knew - but an acquaintance of mine from the first church quite seriously offered to pray for our deliverance from Anglo-Catholicism...
I would never have thought of Forward in Faith Anglo Catholicism as being admirably open and outward looking to the rest of the Church, but in comparison to some of the other byways of Anglicanism it really, really was.
I think I've said already that Our Place's contribution to a week-long series of services (possibly *Thy Kingdom Come*?) was An Hour Of Prayer Before The Blessed Sacrament, with some silences, a couple of short Bible readings, three hymns, and a whiff of incense.
The Baptists enjoyed it, but the charismatic-evos were conspicuous by their absence...
Yes, you're quite right. In fairness to myself, if not to others, I've been to services at charismatic-evo churches which I've actually quite enjoyed - possibly having come from that background sometime in the last century...
One occasion was the licensing of the previous Vicar-but-one at our local char-evo parish. It was a Communion service, with our then Suffragan Bishop presiding, and all was done in a most seemly and edifying manner, complete with lots of modern worship songs as well as a couple of trad hymns.
One abiding memory is the incredibly sour look (as in sucking Lemons) on the face of our Churchwarden, who clearly wished himself away from it all (he was one who regarded the Blessed Virgin Mary as his Co-Redemptrix, so far away from the C of E had he strayed...).
As you rightly say, we need to acknowledge our brothers and sisters, regardless of tradition. I doubt if God bothers much about the details...
No, indeed. By all means pray for your neighbouring churches, but remember that they're labourers in the Lord's vineyard, just as you are, and ask for his blessing on the way they do things...
I generally think it's best to judge any tradition by its best exemplars not its worst. I'm in no big hurry to go back to charismatic style worship myself but that doesn't mean I don't understand the appeal or think badly of those who engage in it - although I draw the line at some of the extreme practitioners and prosperity-gospel snake-oil merchants.
But then, there are insufferable hyperdox chauvinists and whackoes in my own Tradition.
At any rate, ecumenical worship can be quite beige and lowest common denominator-ish.
I'd quite like to be confronted with a BCP service at an ecumenical gathering but can see that it wouldn't be to everyone's taste. Thing is, I'm not sure what would be to everyone's taste. Whatever we do isn't going to go down very well with someone or other.
I think those instances described above where people have been told what to expect are probably the best way to approach these things but then we run the risk of it becoming a bit of a lecture with prayers, liturgy and hymns attached.
I think visits to see various Christian traditions operating in their 'natural habitat' as it were are a good thing. I remember a group of us from the Baptist church I was part of visiting the RCs at their invitation for the 'Stations of the Cross.' On another occasion we attended a memorable Remembrance Service at York Minster.
I think those visits 'worked' because they were natural and organic and part of something that was happening any way.
I remember an Orthodox priest saying how a group of Quakers turned up at the Liturgy one Sunday. They were doing the rounds of churches of different traditions to get a flavour of what they were all about. He was struck how the Friends 'got' what was going on even though they came from a non-sacramental tradition. He felt that they intuitively sussed it rather more than visitors they'd had from traditions one might expect to be closer in terms of style and ethos.
Ah, TEAPOT theology - Those Evil Awful People Over There (thanks to the Old Ship for that one).
Pretty much every church is secretly convinced that their way is, if not the only way, certainly the best way, and God's personal preference. It takes effort to learn about other traditions, but it's worth it.
My former church was charismatic Anglican, deliberately created by the Bishop 30-odd years ago to explore different ways to be church. No written liturgy, contemporary worship band, and our building was a former fire station (in fact for the first 20 years we didn't even have a building).
We shared the building with a Pentecostal church who made us look like Quakers by comparison. We had several joint services, and also took part in services with other local churches, from Baptist to RC. Not as often as I would have liked, but we were certainly open to learning from other traditions. We even ended up with Taize chants during communion.
It's one of the things I miss most about living elsewhere. Where I am now, it's pretty much 'you in your small corner and I in mine'.
I get that all the time - preferable to being told to repent or burn!
So, how do we build trust and respect?
I think one of your problems is that all churches contain refugees from other types of churches. There's always going to be an element who have reason to distrust churches which look very much like what they've come from.
I may have mentioned that I get a nasty squicky feeling whenever Be still for the presence of the Lord is used, even if (as it often is) it's used as a communion hymn in a thoroughly non-Charismatic setting. Baggage.
Yes, there are churches I think of as communities of the walking wounded. Many of us who are queer have had to stay in the closet for decades, others remember being shamed for mental-health difficulties or invisible disabilities, all those who never experienced any pastoral care after bereavement or divorce, those who only knew their home church as abusive or judgmental, those silenced as women or non-binary. Finding somewhere kinder or more inclusive isn't easy and it makes sense to me that those who finally think they have discovered a safe-enough sanctuary don't care to be reminded of the places they fled.
Conversely the pentecostal church I mentioned treated anyone with mental health issues as demonic, rebellious and lacking in faith (otherwise they would have been healed long ago).
Churches do vary a lot within denominations and styles.
Yes. Women run parishes .... no matter what the man say.
That sounds like my kind of church, I'd make a beeline for it and hope to learn a great deal.
Most of us will have one language which we function in,not only from the point of view of vocabulary and grammar but from so many cultural attachments and norms also.
For many of us everything else simply appears 'foreign' and while we are generally able to let the 'foreigners' do what they want, almost instinctively we relate to the language and culture which we know and within ourselves 'know' that this is the correct way to do things.
In the UK it is considered polite after one has finished a course of a meal to put your knife and fork on the plate at 6pm time straight up and down. In Germany it is considered 'correct' to place the knife and fork 3.45 time across the plate from right to left
During the Second World War it was not unknown for people to be given a meal in order to see in which position they would lay their cutlery which would then give a good indication as to where there were 'really from'.
Sure. Which I thought was implicit in what I'd posted but I obviously didn't make myself clear.
My question was rhetorical and I think my post would have been clearer without it.
Anyhow ... on other points that have been raised since ... yes, I think churches within particular traditions, movements and denominations can and do vary a lot in attitudes and approach and none are monolithic.
It's always best not to generalise.
It's possible to find unhealthy and controlling environments in churches of all stripes. Conversely, some that one might expect to be like that are sometimes surprisingly open.
But appearances can be deceptive.
I've had a conversation just this evening on this very point. I was surprised to find that someone I know is on the worship team of a church which is perceived - rightly or wrongly - to strongly support a particular political party. This chap isn't a member there as such but is a member of a different political party to the one this church is commonly perceived to favour.
He insisted that things aren't as clear cut as they might appear from the outside. Granted. But the rest of us felt he was being naive ...
I'm sure there are a wider range of views within that congregation than one might imagine. Even so ... 😉
Anyhow, I s'pose all I'm saying is that we do have to beware of stereotyping particular congregations, movements or groups.
They were the product of processes more like the formation of the URC than ecumenism as currently practiced.
I think the danger at this point is that the kinds of churches thinking about it are already failing to reproduce themselves organically in any way, and the result is likely to be a larger denomination that continues to become smaller - which postpones any discussion of why they are shrinking.
Indeed. In every Christian church there are Christians, but it’s not for us to judge which are and which are not. God only knows.
I do believe that Jesus sees every church building as his house.
The buildings themselves cannot contain the Almighty.
Nor can individuals or groups.
Sure, Big O Orthodox Christians have a more 'definite' or 'concrete' (not in buildings terms!) view of the Church than those who hold to an 'invisible Church' position but that doesn't presuppose that God isn't present or working in and through Christian churches and communities of all stripes or indeed beyond Christianity itself.
I think hardly anyone from other churches were there. I was hoping for some Brass Band trad worship but of course it was an electric guitar led band. Very friendly and laid back.
Are there any Salvation Army members on this Ship?
Increasingly in recent months, and particularly during Epiphany, I have reflected on Jesus' words about having other sheep who are not of this pasture, and the notion in Hebrews that God has spoken in many and various ways down the ages before speaking directly thro His Son. I see many common themes in other religions and philosophies which lead me to suppose that, as people reach out towards a divine being, they can be drawn to the same Truth which we believe to be revealed through the Jewish scriptures - perhaps not yet having the full revelation that we believe to be found only in the person of Jesus Christ, but still in their hearts being brought ever closer to Him.
The best of us still only see 'through a glass dimly' so who are we to say others will not also one day see face to face?
I don't know that there are that many growing churches that are completely independent - they are generally part of some kind of network.
Obviously there's parochialism everywhere; but an alternate explanation would be that these churches tend to view leadership very differently (for both good and sometimes ill), and part of the reason they form networks of their own is that they have forms that wouldn't easily be constructed within more traditional denominations (again this goes both ways).
Older union churches of various stripes weren't generally formed at a time when the constituent churches had started to dwindle and age - and if this is the underlying issue a merger wouldn't really address it.
In this I have followed the Catholic catechism which teaches the following :
1260 since Christ died for all ,and since all are called to the same destiny, we must suppose that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. everyone who seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.
Our reading and sermon today were based on the story of Jonah, and while this was not a major thread of the preaching, I was struck by the fact that Nineveh was not a Jewish city, yet the people were open to the message of repentance and benefited from God's mercy... without any indication that they explicitly converted to Judaism. I believe we see similar ideas in various Biblical stories - eg Daniel's ministry in Babylon, the Magi, and Paul's message to the Athenians.
OTOH, for the first time ever, it seems, the local Roman Catholic priest turned up, with two of his flock!
Make of that what you will...
In the village where I worship the annual Covenant service was held yesterday in the Methodist Chapel as a united Anglican Methodist service, led by both ministers. The priest led the actual Communion part, thereby making it legal for Anglicans( though I think everyone who attended would have partaken anyway).
There were roughly equal numbers from both congregations present.
Whoever said "If a thing is worth doing its worth doing badly" was very, very wrong. Chesterton BTW.
Oh dear. Lessons learned for next year, hopefully?
Mind you, IMHO God is walking his porpoise out is a hymn to be avoided at any time. Absolute dreck and dross...
I love it, even if it is the only metrical hymn I'm aware of that the compilers of A&M felt the need to point as if it were a psalm. The relationship between meter and words is as that of ships passing in the night. In a blizzard.
O the tune is Fun - it's the words that are Rubbish. YMMV.
My wife went to boarding school where it was sung at the final service of every term, but where the pupils sang
"When the Mas and the Pas turn up in their cars
and take us all home for tea."
My hope for this thread was that it would focus chiefly on hopes for future collaboration etc., but always interesting to hear what is happening here and now.