The real problem along this line, for me, has come with the occasional Parade Services for Scouts and Guides. "The young people didn't know the songs you chodse", say the leaders, "You need to choose ones they know from school". But (a) the young people come from several schools (where they don't necessarily sing much) and (b) if asked, they rarely seem to remember any songs! When you couple this with (c) the need to include music which the "regular" congregation sings, you have a problem. Very often it comes back to half-remembered Christian music from the leaders' or congregants' childhoods, which don't 'work' either! This is a circle I have never managed to satisfactorily square in 35 years of ministry!
Did I say that we have a Parade Service on Sunday week?
It can be the same with weddings. They seem to choose hymns which they might have sung at school, and maybe include one their Granny likes.
Last Saturday at a wedding we sang
Give me joy in my heart
Make me a channel of thy peace
Lord of the dance
Jerusalem.
I think the congregation mostly seemed to join in with Jerusalem.
Very much so. The problem is the pitching of the hymns to suit women's voices, and not those of men - men are required to make rapid transpositions whilst singing.
The idea is that men sing an octave below the women. So women are singing the octave and a note above Middle C; men are singing from an octave below Middle C to the note immediately above.
It's not that the hymns are pitched for women's voices; they're pitched for mixed voices - between Soprano and Contralto for women and between Tenor and Bass for men. Your voice just seems to have a very low upper limit even for a man. Even Bass range goes up to an E (occasionally F) above middle C. By contrast if you're struggling with hymns your top note must be Middle C or lower. That is - unusual.
If on the other hand you're trying to sing the women's pitch I'm not surprised you're struggling!
Many hymns have notes which are too low for me, that is anything below Middle C.
Dear Lord and Father, We plough the fields come to mind. Our organist chooses higher settings where he can. The hymn book offers them frequently.
The real problem along this line, for me, has come with the occasional Parade Services for Scouts and Guides.
It was this very situation - a Parade Service for the Girls' Brigade - which lead to "Jesus You're My Superhero, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" being included last Sunday. Presumably not for the girls themselves, who do know a number of hymns, but for siblings in the congregation.
Did I say that we have a Parade Service on Sunday week?
Top tip - "Jesus You're My Superhero" is not the answer to your problem.
(To re-iterate, the abomination of a song was more than made up for by a belter of a sermon!)
Many hymns have notes which are too low for me, that is anything below Middle C.
Dear Lord and Father, We plough the fields come to mind. Our organist chooses higher settings where he can. The hymn book offers them frequently.
As a tenor I can't really project notes below C but if you put We Plough the Fields into a key where the lowest note is C the highest is going to be a top G which is going to be hard to impossible for Altos and Basses and definitely impossible for the vast majority of untrained congregation voices. Even I prefer to croak out the low A/Ab than subject everyone else to trying to trying to reach that. @Gee D would probably need surgery.
Very much so. The problem is the pitching of the hymns to suit women's voices, and not those of men - men are required to make rapid transpositions whilst singing.
@KarlLB - I can't deal with the technicalities you set out in your posts, but the best answer I can give is that I have a tenor voice. And I'd rather not have that sort of surgery! While I try to sing where I'm comfortable, the voices around me influence me too much and I end up in a hopeless mess.
@KarlLB - I can't deal with the technicalities you set out in your posts, but the best answer I can give is that I have a tenor voice. And I'd rather not have that sort of surgery! While I try to sing where I'm comfortable, the voices around me influence me too much and I end up in a hopeless mess.
If you're a tenor - the highest natural male voice - the hymns should feel a little too low, not too high! Try dropping an octave. I can only think you're trying to sing the women's pitch.
Top tip - "Jesus You're My Superhero" is not the answer to your problem.
Duly noted!
We don't know it, anyway. We did have "God of science" (without the video) last Sunday, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jalnpoW7pQ. It was All-Age Harvest and many (old and young) knew the song from our Holiday Club.
@KarlLB - I can't deal with the technicalities you set out in your posts, but the best answer I can give is that I have a tenor voice. And I'd rather not have that sort of surgery! While I try to sing where I'm comfortable, the voices around me influence me too much and I end up in a hopeless mess.
If you're a tenor - the highest natural male voice - the hymns should feel a little too low, not too high! Try dropping an octave. I can only think you're trying to sing the women's pitch.
I think your last sentence is probably what happens. It's hard to be sure when I'm singing away - I'm thinking of what I'm singing rather than analysing how I'm doing it. I'll concentrate a bit more on the means rather than the substance. Thanks again for your comments.
I’m rather intrigued thinking about what an anthem about leaving them in perfect peace might be like, though.
The text is from Isaiah 26 and Psalm 139:
"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee.
The darkness is no darkness with Thee, but the night is as clear as the day.
The darkness and the light to Thee are both alike.
God is light and with Him is no darkness at all.
Oh let my soul live and it shall praise Thee.
For Thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory, for evermore."
What is it like? Very beautiful, as you will find here.
I’m rather intrigued thinking about what an anthem about leaving them in perfect peace might be like, though.
The text is from Isaiah 26 and Psalm 139:
"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee.
The darkness is no darkness with Thee, but the night is as clear as the day.
The darkness and the light to Thee are both alike.
God is light and with Him is no darkness at all.
Oh let my soul live and it shall praise Thee.
For Thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory, for evermore."
What is it like? Very beautiful, as you will find here.
Its a bit wet biscuit and Nellie Dean for my tastes.
ISTM that part of the problem is the relatively narrow range of English-speakers' spoken language, and it is present from childhood. Lack of singing nursery rhymes and, later, in school also plays a part. That, coupled with inadequate breathing, is the issue.
When I VT prospective choristers the initial range nowadays is roughly an octave. My just-retired Head Chorister had an initial range of 9 notes and ended up with two-and-a-half octaves (19 notes).
I’m rather intrigued thinking about what an anthem about leaving them in perfect peace might be like, though.
The text is from Isaiah 26 and Psalm 139:
"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee.
The darkness is no darkness with Thee, but the night is as clear as the day.
The darkness and the light to Thee are both alike.
God is light and with Him is no darkness at all.
Oh let my soul live and it shall praise Thee.
For Thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory, for evermore."
What is it like? Very beautiful, as you will find here.
Yes, I know it very well—probably could sing it in my sleep.
It was a joke—I was imagining the potential humor in the counterpart anthem inspired by Sojourner’s Thou shall leave them in perfect peace.
@North East Quine, I finally gave “Jesus, You’re My Superhero” a watch/listen. Blech! I’m sorry that was inflicted on you all, but glad the sermon made up for it. (And I think I’m very glad that Parade Services aren’t a thing here.)
I’m rather intrigued thinking about what an anthem about leaving them in perfect peace might be like, though.
The text is from Isaiah 26 and Psalm 139:
"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee.
The darkness is no darkness with Thee, but the night is as clear as the day.
The darkness and the light to Thee are both alike.
God is light and with Him is no darkness at all.
Oh let my soul live and it shall praise Thee.
For Thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory, for evermore."
What is it like? Very beautiful, as you will find here.
Its a bit wet biscuit and Nellie Dean for my tastes.
.
Yup, likewise, and I’ve sung the bloody thing more times than I’d have preferred during 9 years in an ( Anglo-Catholic) choir.
Harvest Festival at St. P's this morning, with some of the usual suspects:
We plough the fields and scatter - Wir pflügen Praise and thanksgiving - Bunessan Praise God for the harvest of orchard and field - Stowey My God, and is thy table spread - Rockingham Fill your hearts with joy and gladness - Ode to Joy
I'm not a huge Beethoven fan (apart from his symphonies), but Ode to Joy does tend to send people out rejoicing. The lady sitting next to me (a trained musician) was giving it welly (as was I), but having great trouble not singing the slightly syncopated rhythm at the beginning of the penultimate line that comes in the original version!
Nowt. My cold has settled on my larynx, as it usually does. Got a concert in three weeks too. Nothing no-one can manage without - just the Counsel in Trial and most of the tenor chorus in Pinafore so it'd better shift or we're buggered.
“Tell his praise in song and story” - Ebenezer.
“Faithful One, so unchanging”.
“Be bold, be strong”.
“Have faith in God, my heart"- Carlisle.
“When, O God, our faith is tested” - All Saints.
“Be still, my soul” - Finlandia.
Hmm ... never sung it to that, but I can see that it would work well.
It's the only tune given for it in CH4, contrary to my suspicion that they'd set it to something nobody knows and I'd picked the tune in desperation.
Today we had:
Blessed Assurance (which always makes me think of Rowan Williams talking about Evangelicalism)
Be still for the presence of the Lord
Inspired by love and anger (SALLEY GARDENS)
Safe in the shadow of the Lord
God is working his purpose out (BENSON)
I love the last one, very much. I just wish the author had been a better poet so one didn't have to either change the accompaniment for each verse or remember which notes to add/miss out when singing. For reference:
Verse 1
God is working his purpose out, (8) as year succeeds to year: (6)
God is working his purpose out, (8) and the time is drawing near; (7)
...
Verse 3
Let us go forth in the strength of God (9), with the banner of Christ unfurled, (8)
that the light of the glorious gospel of truth (11) may shine throughout the world (6)
That is a bonkers variation in the number of syllables to fit in a given space. I also must point a finger at the editors of CH4 who otherwise seem more than happy to take a hatchet to the words of a hymn but here have contrived to make things worse. It appears Let us go replaces March we. Gaah!
I must tip a hat, however, to the compilers of A&MR who apparently took one look at this stramash and decided the whole thing needed pointing like a psalm to give choristers half a clue what is going on. I also note that my music copy of A&MR, which is otherwise pretty clean, bears the despairing pencil marks of the organist trying to keep track of which notes to play when.
I agree with all you say about GIWHPO. I wonder if the CH3 editors changed "March we forth" - which does fit the tune so much better - because it sounded archaic, bossy or militaristic.
Many and Great, O God, Are Thy Works/LACQUIPARLE Ho, All Who Thirst (Come Now to the Water)/JACOB’S WELL I Am the Bread of Life Let Us Talents and Tongues Employ/LINSTEAD
I think most of the hymnbooks I've seen with God is walking his porpoise out has the extra syllables marked with "broken" slurs/ties over the notes, or quavers in brackets.
I suppose it's one of those things that once you're used to it, you do it without thinking. After all, nobody seems to mind the irregular bits in O come, all ye faithful:
God o-of Go-od, Li-ight o-of Li-ight
Lo! He abho-ors not the Vi-irgin's womb
Ve-ry-y God, Begotten, not created ...
(NO passing note on "created" - it'll make the Baby Jesus cry).
We had Evensong this evening, at which we sang:
Eternal Ruler of the ceaseless round - Song 1
Psalm 65 - chant by Elvey Hail, gladdening Light - Sebaste Come, ye thankful people, come - St. George's, Windsor God that madest earth and heaven - Ar Hyd Y Nos
Harvest at our place today: always a full church, this morning we had to have an overflow in the Church Hall!
Setting
A New Parish Mass Murray Anthems
Thou visitest the earth Greene
The heavens are telling Haydn Hymns
Come, ye thankful people St George's Windsor
To thee, O Lord, our hearts we raise Golden Sheaves
God, whose farm is all creation Gott will s'Machen
We plough the fields Wir Pflugen Recessional
Fantasia super 'Komm, Heiliger Geist' BWV651 J S Bach
After all, nobody seems to mind the irregular bits in O come, all ye faithful:
God o-of Go-od, Li-ight o-of Li-ight
Lo! He abho-ors not the Vi-irgin's womb
Ve-ry-y God, Begotten, not created ...
(NO passing note on "created" - it'll make the Baby Jesus cry).
It's details like that which make me miss what I'd call Proper Church Music as Our Place sings all those last lines with passing notes. Also, the "Ve-ry-y God" line is always a mess with most people going "Ve-ry-y Go-od, B'gotten, not created" and purists like me going "Ve-ry-y God, Be-gotten, not created."
The UK’s world-renowned reputation for sacred choral and organ music has been witnessed by hundreds of millions over the last few weeks, yet the future viability of one of the jewels of British life faces a serious sustainability crisis, a new report commissioned by the Cathedral Music Trust has found
Stand up, stand up for Jesus - Morning Light Be thou my guardian and my guide - Abridge I'm not ashamed to own my Lord - Jackson Be still, for the presence of the Lord - Be Still Lord enthroned in heav'nly splendour - St. Helen
The appliance which passes for an organ has one of those key-changing thingies, and I reckon today's organist had it set rather higher than it might have been.
“Fill your hearts with joy and gladness” - Regent Square.
"We praise God in the morning” (Alan Price).
“God the Father, Great Creator, you are Lord” - If you're happy and you know it.
“Now that harvest crops are gathered” - Shipston.
“For the beauty of the earth” - Dix.
“How great thou art!”
Visiting the mainland and a wee pisky church with a good size congregation (by rural standards) and a fine organist:
Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
Father who in Jesus found us
Be still for the presence of the Lord
O for a thousand tongues
Setting: Schubert German Mass (excerpts, as it was communion from the reserved sacrament because the priest was one of the other congregations in the group).
Covid kept me away ... however the Mass for the end of the Season of Creation kicked off with the rewritten version of All things bright and beautiful which caused loud complaints from those who think that real life has no place in Church.
The question we have to ask ourselves is, "To what extent is that actually true?" Or do we simply attribute all illnesses and Nasty Beasties to The Fall? (Possibly a bit Purgatorial for this board ...).
The question we have to ask ourselves is, "To what extent is that actually true?" Or do we simply attribute all illnesses and Nasty Beasties to The Fall? (Possibly a bit Purgatorial for this board ...).
The latter doesn't work. Diseases and Nasty Beasties existed for millions of years before there were humans to do any falling.
Well, precisely. But we then have to ask if God created them, or if they were a mistake, or what ...
Presumably "nasty" is only a thing after humans developed the ability to ascribe moral values to the activities of unthinking scraps of life.
I always wonder about using the existence of parasites as an argument against a Good God. From the point of view of a parasite the existence of handy and plentiful hosts is an excellent thing.
Comments
Did I say that we have a Parade Service on Sunday week?
Last Saturday at a wedding we sang
Give me joy in my heart
Make me a channel of thy peace
Lord of the dance
Jerusalem.
I think the congregation mostly seemed to join in with Jerusalem.
The idea is that men sing an octave below the women. So women are singing the octave and a note above Middle C; men are singing from an octave below Middle C to the note immediately above.
It's not that the hymns are pitched for women's voices; they're pitched for mixed voices - between Soprano and Contralto for women and between Tenor and Bass for men. Your voice just seems to have a very low upper limit even for a man. Even Bass range goes up to an E (occasionally F) above middle C. By contrast if you're struggling with hymns your top note must be Middle C or lower. That is - unusual.
If on the other hand you're trying to sing the women's pitch I'm not surprised you're struggling!
Dear Lord and Father, We plough the fields come to mind. Our organist chooses higher settings where he can. The hymn book offers them frequently.
It was this very situation - a Parade Service for the Girls' Brigade - which lead to "Jesus You're My Superhero, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" being included last Sunday. Presumably not for the girls themselves, who do know a number of hymns, but for siblings in the congregation.
Did I say that we have a Parade Service on Sunday week?
Top tip - "Jesus You're My Superhero" is not the answer to your problem.
(To re-iterate, the abomination of a song was more than made up for by a belter of a sermon!)
As a tenor I can't really project notes below C but if you put We Plough the Fields into a key where the lowest note is C the highest is going to be a top G which is going to be hard to impossible for Altos and Basses and definitely impossible for the vast majority of untrained congregation voices. Even I prefer to croak out the low A/Ab than subject everyone else to trying to trying to reach that. @Gee D would probably need surgery.
While attempting to avoid yodelling.
If you're a tenor - the highest natural male voice - the hymns should feel a little too low, not too high! Try dropping an octave. I can only think you're trying to sing the women's pitch.
We don't know it, anyway. We did have "God of science" (without the video) last Sunday, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jalnpoW7pQ. It was All-Age Harvest and many (old and young) knew the song from our Holiday Club.
Doubtless many on this thread would excoriate it!
I think your last sentence is probably what happens. It's hard to be sure when I'm singing away - I'm thinking of what I'm singing rather than analysing how I'm doing it. I'll concentrate a bit more on the means rather than the substance. Thanks again for your comments.
The text is from Isaiah 26 and Psalm 139:
"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee.
The darkness is no darkness with Thee, but the night is as clear as the day.
The darkness and the light to Thee are both alike.
God is light and with Him is no darkness at all.
Oh let my soul live and it shall praise Thee.
For Thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory, for evermore."
What is it like? Very beautiful, as you will find here.
Is outrage!
Its a bit wet biscuit and Nellie Dean for my tastes.
When I VT prospective choristers the initial range nowadays is roughly an octave. My just-retired Head Chorister had an initial range of 9 notes and ended up with two-and-a-half octaves (19 notes).
It was a joke—I was imagining the potential humor in the counterpart anthem inspired by Sojourner’s Thou shall leave them in perfect peace.
@North East Quine, I finally gave “Jesus, You’re My Superhero” a watch/listen. Blech! I’m sorry that was inflicted on you all, but glad the sermon made up for it. (And I think I’m very glad that Parade Services aren’t a thing here.)
But Jesus sure did look like Obi Wan Kenobi.
Yup, likewise, and I’ve sung the bloody thing more times than I’d have preferred during 9 years in an ( Anglo-Catholic) choir.
To each his own, as the old lady said when she kissed the cow😂
We plough the fields and scatter - Wir pflügen
Praise and thanksgiving - Bunessan
Praise God for the harvest of orchard and field - Stowey
My God, and is thy table spread - Rockingham
Fill your hearts with joy and gladness - Ode to Joy
I'm not a huge Beethoven fan (apart from his symphonies), but Ode to Joy does tend to send people out rejoicing. The lady sitting next to me (a trained musician) was giving it welly (as was I), but having great trouble not singing the slightly syncopated rhythm at the beginning of the penultimate line that comes in the original version!
RHUDDLAN.
“Faithful One, so unchanging”.
“Be bold, be strong”.
“Have faith in God, my heart"- Carlisle.
“When, O God, our faith is tested” - All Saints.
“Be still, my soul” - Finlandia.
It's the only tune given for it in CH4, contrary to my suspicion that they'd set it to something nobody knows and I'd picked the tune in desperation.
Today we had:
Blessed Assurance (which always makes me think of Rowan Williams talking about Evangelicalism)
Be still for the presence of the Lord
Inspired by love and anger (SALLEY GARDENS)
Safe in the shadow of the Lord
God is working his purpose out (BENSON)
I love the last one, very much. I just wish the author had been a better poet so one didn't have to either change the accompaniment for each verse or remember which notes to add/miss out when singing. For reference:
Verse 1
God is working his purpose out, (8) as year succeeds to year: (6)
God is working his purpose out, (8) and the time is drawing near; (7)
...
Verse 3
Let us go forth in the strength of God (9), with the banner of Christ unfurled, (8)
that the light of the glorious gospel of truth (11) may shine throughout the world (6)
That is a bonkers variation in the number of syllables to fit in a given space. I also must point a finger at the editors of CH4 who otherwise seem more than happy to take a hatchet to the words of a hymn but here have contrived to make things worse. It appears Let us go replaces March we. Gaah!
I must tip a hat, however, to the compilers of A&MR who apparently took one look at this stramash and decided the whole thing needed pointing like a psalm to give choristers half a clue what is going on. I also note that my music copy of A&MR, which is otherwise pretty clean, bears the despairing pencil marks of the organist trying to keep track of which notes to play when.
Many and Great, O God, Are Thy Works/LACQUIPARLE
Ho, All Who Thirst (Come Now to the Water)/JACOB’S WELL
I Am the Bread of Life
Let Us Talents and Tongues Employ/LINSTEAD
I suppose it's one of those things that once you're used to it, you do it without thinking. After all, nobody seems to mind the irregular bits in O come, all ye faithful:
God o-of Go-od, Li-ight o-of Li-ight
Lo! He abho-ors not the Vi-irgin's womb
Ve-ry-y God, Begotten, not created ...
(NO passing note on "created" - it'll make the Baby Jesus cry).
We had Evensong this evening, at which we sang:
Eternal Ruler of the ceaseless round - Song 1
Psalm 65 - chant by Elvey
Hail, gladdening Light - Sebaste
Come, ye thankful people, come - St. George's, Windsor
God that madest earth and heaven - Ar Hyd Y Nos
Setting
A New Parish Mass Murray
Anthems
Thou visitest the earth Greene
The heavens are telling Haydn
Hymns
Come, ye thankful people St George's Windsor
To thee, O Lord, our hearts we raise Golden Sheaves
God, whose farm is all creation Gott will s'Machen
We plough the fields Wir Pflugen
Recessional
Fantasia super 'Komm, Heiliger Geist' BWV651 J S Bach
As for the (non) passing note, David always played that bit on the very loudest pedal reed the organ possessed, usually with a big grin ...
Stand up, stand up for Jesus - Morning Light
Be thou my guardian and my guide - Abridge
I'm not ashamed to own my Lord - Jackson
Be still, for the presence of the Lord - Be Still
Lord enthroned in heav'nly splendour - St. Helen
The appliance which passes for an organ has one of those key-changing thingies, and I reckon today's organist had it set rather higher than it might have been.
“Fill your hearts with joy and gladness” - Regent Square.
"We praise God in the morning” (Alan Price).
“God the Father, Great Creator, you are Lord” - If you're happy and you know it.
“Now that harvest crops are gathered” - Shipston.
“For the beauty of the earth” - Dix.
“How great thou art!”
Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
Father who in Jesus found us
Be still for the presence of the Lord
O for a thousand tongues
Setting: Schubert German Mass (excerpts, as it was communion from the reserved sacrament because the priest was one of the other congregations in the group).
Isn't it the Hokey Cokey? Or is that a pond difference?
We had baptisms (teenagers) and confirmation this morning, and the baptizands/confirmands picked the hymns. We had:
Here in this Place (Gather Us In)/GATHER US IN
Laudate Dominum/Berthier, Taizé
What Does the Lord Require of You?/MOON
Go to the World!/SINE NOMINE
It comments that all things are no longer bright and beautiful because of our ruining the planet. The text is here
https://www.lichfield.anglican.org/all-things-bright-and-beautiful.php
Aww, I was expecting the Monty Python version.
Thank you.
The same.
The latter doesn't work. Diseases and Nasty Beasties existed for millions of years before there were humans to do any falling.
Presumably "nasty" is only a thing after humans developed the ability to ascribe moral values to the activities of unthinking scraps of life.
I always wonder about using the existence of parasites as an argument against a Good God. From the point of view of a parasite the existence of handy and plentiful hosts is an excellent thing.