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Young men, old men, visions & dreams

mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
in Kerygmania
In a prophecy in the book of Joel (), quoted in Acts (), we are told "Old men will dream dreams and young men will see visions."

Is this mere parallelism, or is there something different bsetween the aged and the young, and between dreams and visions, that causes the aged to have dreams, and the young to have visions? Is this a distinction without a difference, or is there something going on with the distribution of prophetic experiences?

And if there is a difference, what is it? What makes dreams appropriate for geezers and visions appropriate for their grandchildren?
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Comments

  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Sorry, Acts 2:17 and Joel 2:28
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I think it’s probably worth quoting the whole bit:
    I will pour out my spirit on all flesh;
    your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    your old men shall dream dreams,
    and your young men shall see visions.
    Even on the male and female slaves,
    in those days, I will pour out my spirit.
    I think there are a couple of things going on here. “[Y]our old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.” I think this is parallelism. I’d be interested in the Hebrew to know whether there’s a meaningful difference between “dreams” and “visions,” or whether they would have been seen as facets of the same phenomenon.

    But part of the reason I thought it worth quoting the whole thing is to see the inclusion of women and slaves. To me that indicates an inclusive nature, even a radically inclusive nature, to what’s going on. There is foreshadowing of “[t]here is neither Jew nor Greek, nor slave nor free, nor male nor female.”

    Whatever it is going on, everyone will share in it.


  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Sorry for the double post. Some quick looking seems to be turning up places in the Hebrew Scriptures where dreams are called “visions of the night.” I’m also seeing some writers who tie “visions,” which happen while awake, with being young and active, and “dreams,” which happen while asleep, with being old and more prone to rest.

    I don’t know. I still suspect both words are being used to describe basically the same thing.


  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Could it be that young people are able to see their vision through to fruition where as old people can only dream?

    I know the saying -
    “A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in”

    But still ...
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    I think the two are basically the same. From my own life, there are times I can't tell if I was awake or asleep when something happened, especially with the insomnia I've had since 2023! And so I don't know whether to call something a dream or a vision if it occurs during those iffy times. I don't think it matters.

    I will say that the waking visions seem to be much more... emphatic? And rarer, or so it seems.

    There is a stage called hypnagogia between sleeping and waking, and it can involve dreaming or hallucinating, whatever you want to call it. It means that you have to be careful with discernment not to mistake the merely natural for more than that.
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    Perhaps the old men are sleepier than the young men, and so they have dreams and not visions.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    I would think it's pretty much just rhetoric. You could argue a young person with a vision is inspired to carry it through, whereas an old person may have a vague dream of how things could be. But I think that is making two words do a lot of work. After all, MLK didn't say "I have a vision."

    I have heard a sermon about the "all flesh" part, where the preacher emphasised that it didn't say "all people" and we'd better look out for some prophesying cats and dogs in the last days. He wasn't serious. At least I don't think so...

    On a more serious note, I've heard the "all flesh" part emphasised to mean "not just those we consider our own people" or even "not just Christians".
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Joseph had some famous dreams, and he was a young man. Zechariah had a famous vision, and he was an old man. I'd say the message is more "God will pour out his Spirit on all sorts of people" rather than "who will get what"...
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    It feels to me that it loses some of its comprehensiveness if there is an implied division between young men and old men. And it seems to be going for overabundance.

    Which doesnt mean that there isnt an interesting distinction between Hebrew dreams and visions (and in any case the bible doesn't have to fit in with my aesthetics).
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