Not a fan of the Toolan. The words don't fit the tune. Sometimes too many, sometimes too few. And it spans a huge range.
I tend to feel similarly.
My denomination’s hymnal attempts to deal with these problems by suggesting that the verses might be sung by a cantor/soloist, with the refrain being sung by all.
Me too. Particularly “I am the Bread of Life” and Jodi Paige Clark’s “Kyrie Eleison”.
I am the Bread of Life is difficult congregationally. Either need to drag the tenor/soprano voices down to an A or Ab or force the bass/contralto voices up to an F.
Me too. Particularly “I am the Bread of Life” and Jodi Paige Clark’s “Kyrie Eleison”.
I am the Bread of Life is difficult congregationally. Either need to drag the tenor/soprano voices down to an A or Ab or force the bass/contralto voices up to an F.
Yes, it suffers from "Danny Boy Sindrome." Otherwise known as "Slane Complex."
Google was no help to me with either Danny Boy Syndrome or Slane complex! Though I suspect it’s about range. So, greatly daring, I offer these thoughts for the more musical among you. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
Doesn’t the soprano range in the congregation-friendly A flat major key go from a low A flat to a high E flat? Most congregations I’ve sung in could manage that though the low A flat might be a bit of a growl.
(In my choir boy days I could comfortably sing low A flat, could actually manage the top B flat above top A e.g His Yoke is Easy. High E flat? No problem! We had a couple of male altos who could do that.
The high E flat below A (Bass clef) is still a doddle even for my 83 year old voice.)
Maybe I overestimate modern congregational capabilities? Maybe you’re used to a higher key?
I largely agree with you, though prefer to keep hymns in the range between B (below middle C) and D (above top C) if possible. My wife forbids me to choose "Londonderry Air".
A lot depends on how the tune gets to the high notes. The aforesaid "Air" suddenly gives one a high note; however tunes such as "Blaenwern" and "Arwelfa" offer a staged ascent.
I still love the "jumps"! As a boy treble I loved to sing the Amen chorus from Messiah. Certainly some singing gymnastics in that but what a climax. With that breathtaking pause at the end.
(When my voice broke I became a not very good baritone. I still love singing but I miss my treble days.)
@Barnabas62 yes it was about range. I am finding that the range my congregation can comfortably sing is shrinking as they get older. And I find that top D is more of a stretch for them as time moves on. So I pretty much avoid tunes that have a range of more than an octave.
Last time I sang Messiah I found myself giggling at that outrageous pause.
A lot depends on how the tune gets to the high notes. The aforesaid "Air" suddenly gives one a high note; however tunes such as "Blaenwern" and "Arwelfa" offer a staged ascent.
Yes, much depends on how one gets to high notes, and I’d add SLANE to the tunes to that work their way more easily to the high notes.
“The Star-Spangled Banner” on the other hand . . . .
I largely agree with you, though prefer to keep hymns in the range between B (below middle C) and D (above top C) if possible. My wife forbids me to choose "Londonderry Air".
A lot depends on how the tune gets to the high notes. The aforesaid "Air" suddenly gives one a high note; however tunes such as "Blaenwern" and "Arwelfa" offer a staged ascent.
Unfortunately "bread of life" jumps an entire octave to it.
Last time I sang Messiah I found myself giggling at that outrageous pause.
Shows we’re all different.! It’s always seemed perfect to me. Even as an 11 year old when I first sang it.
I have this imaginative picture of Handel writing those last few bars, deciding on the pause, and saying “Yes”. Then putting his pen down, with satisfaction, after completion.
... My wife forbids me to choose "Londonderry Air".
Your wife is a very wise lady, with exquisite taste.
I absolutely loathe it, but it always reminds me of an occasion at the Commonwealth Games in the 1990s when a Northern Irish athlete (I think he was a boxer) unexpectedly won a gold medal.
Nobody had bothered to make a recording of Danny Boy, and my then-boss's brother, who was something official in the NI team, began to sing it. Of course, he started far too high*, and when he got the stratospheric bit, he sort of stopped, and the spectators took over.
* he was actually quite a decent singer, but without the benefit of a starting note, he was somewhat banjaxed
Last time I sang Messiah I found myself giggling at that outrageous pause.
Shows we’re all different.! It’s always seemed perfect to me. Even as an 11 year old when I first sang it.
I have this imaginative picture of Handel writing those last few bars, deciding on the pause, and saying “Yes”. Then putting his pen down, with satisfaction, after completion.
It was the perfection that made me giggle. Like finishing a crossword or jigsaw.
On the other hand the only time I have sung Bachs Matthew Passion I couldnt sing the last two choruses because my eyes were full of tears.
Love them both. So moving. What an inheritance we have. I do appreciate the limits on congregational singing. For those of us fortunate to have sung them - and still can - such precious gifts. And all can still listen and enter in that way.
Trinity 12 tomorrow:
Thine be the glory (Maccabaeus) We love the place O God (Quam Dilecta) Let us break bread together (Anon) The head that once was crowned with thorns (St Magnus)
The church’s one foundation - Aurelia
Holy Spirit, come confirm us - All for Jesus
Christ is made the firm foundation
-Westminster Abbey
Be still and know that I am God
Take my life - Nottingham
Peter, keys, rock etc Mtt 16.
The Churches one foundation Aurelia.
Oh the Love of my Lord is the essence
Love Divine all loves excelling. Blaenwern.
Usual Mass bits.
I wondered about the Gospel being about Peter - isn't his feast day 29th June?
Anyway, our offerings today were:
Christ whose glory fills the skies - Ratisbon Be still, my soul - Finlandia Take my life, and let it be - Nottingham* Holy, holy, holy is the Lord** Christ is made the sure foundation - Westminster Abbey
* How did a tune by Mozart end up being called "Nottingham"? 🤔
** which took a good bit longer than was needed for covering Communion. I'm not surprised it's listed as "author and composer unknown" - if I'd written that drivel I wouldn't have admitted it either.
The great thing about this thread is no matter the diversion, it resets every Sunday.
Indeed.
We had:
Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of creation Abide with me God whose glory fills the skies Just as I am without one plea Alleluia, sing to Jesus
Thinking about what part God may, or may not, have played in this summer's weather.
“O worship the King” - Hanover.
“We praise God in the morning” (Alan Price).
“Summer suns are glowing” - Ruth.
“The climate is changing!” (Carolyn Wynfree Gillette - Stowey).
“You shall go out with joy” (Steffi Geiser Rubin & Stuart Dauermann).
I wondered about the Gospel being about Peter - isn't his feast day 29th June?
Anyway, our offerings today were:
Christ whose glory fills the skies - Ratisbon Be still, my soul - Finlandia Take my life, and let it be - Nottingham* Holy, holy, holy is the Lord** Christ is made the sure foundation - Westminster Abbey
* How did a tune by Mozart end up being called "Nottingham"? 🤔]
I have sung that tune many times but that thought occurred to me this morning as well.
It may not have been written by Mozart - here's a note, copied from a YouTube recording of the hymn:
The tune is 'Mozart', also known as 'Nottingham'. It comes from the Kyrie of what is often known as 'Mozart's 12th Mass'. However, most scholars now agree that this was not written by Mozart but by Wenzel Müller some time between 1791 and 1803. Müller was a prolific composer, who wrote 166 operas! It has been suggested that the name 'Nottingham' came about because the arrangement may have been made by an unknown musician from Nottingham.
I was singing in the (rather depleted*) choir at St Magnus Cathedral this morning. Bit of a curate's egg:
Introit: Hymn to St Magnus - 13th century
Anthem: Psalm 150 - Stanford
Hymns:
At the name of Jesus - Camberwell I rejoiced when I heard them say - England Beauty for brokenness - Kendrick 🙄 Give thanks with a grateful heart - no idea what the tune's called, but it sounds like "Go West" by the Wurzels ... 🙃
By Village People. The Wurzels (and for that matter the Pet Shop Boys) only covered it.
It is pretty much Go West, yes. I don’t think the Wurzels covered that one (I may be wrong) but there was an Ambrosia custard advert that used the song as “Oo-arr, it’s Ambrosia”.
I can’t be the only one who sometimes sang “Oo-arr with a grateful heart” (or indeed a grapefruit tart).
Comments
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Y8FrQj4nA&ra=m
I’m sure there is a lot wrong technically. But I didn’t notice that on first hearing. What I heard was passion and commitment.
Particularly in the refrain.
“And I will raise him up on the last day.”
It was a revelation to me that people could sing in worship with such passion. That got me then. Still gets me.
This is not a musical opinion, though I’m not unmusical. . It was definitely a believers opinion. It opened a door for me.
My denomination’s hymnal attempts to deal with these problems by suggesting that the verses might be sung by a cantor/soloist, with the refrain being sung by all.
Yes they raise the roof at ours when it's programmed.
There is a helpful Russian proverb.
“When two people do the same thing it is not necessarily the same”.
So far as sincerity is concerned. the Lord looks on the heart.
“What did we sing at church today?”
Good question
“Were we engaged in worship today?”
Also a good question.
I am the Bread of Life is difficult congregationally. Either need to drag the tenor/soprano voices down to an A or Ab or force the bass/contralto voices up to an F.
Yes, it suffers from "Danny Boy Sindrome." Otherwise known as "Slane Complex."
Google was no help to me with either Danny Boy Syndrome or Slane complex! Though I suspect it’s about range. So, greatly daring, I offer these thoughts for the more musical among you. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
Doesn’t the soprano range in the congregation-friendly A flat major key go from a low A flat to a high E flat? Most congregations I’ve sung in could manage that though the low A flat might be a bit of a growl.
(In my choir boy days I could comfortably sing low A flat, could actually manage the top B flat above top A e.g His Yoke is Easy. High E flat? No problem! We had a couple of male altos who could do that.
The high E flat below A (Bass clef) is still a doddle even for my 83 year old voice.)
Maybe I overestimate modern congregational capabilities? Maybe you’re used to a higher key?
Apologies if I’m talking rubbish.
A lot depends on how the tune gets to the high notes. The aforesaid "Air" suddenly gives one a high note; however tunes such as "Blaenwern" and "Arwelfa" offer a staged ascent.
(When my voice broke I became a not very good baritone. I still love singing but I miss my treble days.)
Last time I sang Messiah I found myself giggling at that outrageous pause.
“The Star-Spangled Banner” on the other hand . . . .
Unfortunately "bread of life" jumps an entire octave to it.
Shows we’re all different.! It’s always seemed perfect to me. Even as an 11 year old when I first sang it.
I have this imaginative picture of Handel writing those last few bars, deciding on the pause, and saying “Yes”. Then putting his pen down, with satisfaction, after completion.
Your wife is a very wise lady, with exquisite taste.
I absolutely loathe it, but it always reminds me of an occasion at the Commonwealth Games in the 1990s when a Northern Irish athlete (I think he was a boxer) unexpectedly won a gold medal.
Nobody had bothered to make a recording of Danny Boy, and my then-boss's brother, who was something official in the NI team, began to sing it. Of course, he started far too high*, and when he got the stratospheric bit, he sort of stopped, and the spectators took over.
* he was actually quite a decent singer, but without the benefit of a starting note, he was somewhat banjaxed
Anyway, what’s wrong with it? The Irish love it. I don’t blame them.
You’ll be telling me next you don’t like Fairy Tale of New York! Mind you I doubt it’s ever been sung in a Sunday service.
It was the perfection that made me giggle. Like finishing a crossword or jigsaw.
On the other hand the only time I have sung Bachs Matthew Passion I couldnt sing the last two choruses because my eyes were full of tears.
Thine be the glory (Maccabaeus)
We love the place O God (Quam Dilecta)
Let us break bread together (Anon)
The head that once was crowned with thorns (St Magnus)
Or, to steer this thread slightly back toward home, “Amazing Grace.”
Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders. Gott helfe mir. Amen.
(“Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.”)
Name of all Majesty (Majestas)
Praise to the Lord (Lobe Den Herren)
Spirit of the Living God (Iverson)
The Servant King (Kendrick)
Mass of St Thomas
The church’s one foundation - Aurelia
Holy Spirit, come confirm us - All for Jesus
Christ is made the firm foundation
-Westminster Abbey
Be still and know that I am God
Take my life - Nottingham
The Churches one foundation Aurelia.
Oh the Love of my Lord is the essence
Love Divine all loves excelling. Blaenwern.
Usual Mass bits.
Anyway, our offerings today were:
Christ whose glory fills the skies - Ratisbon
Be still, my soul - Finlandia
Take my life, and let it be - Nottingham*
Holy, holy, holy is the Lord**
Christ is made the sure foundation - Westminster Abbey
* How did a tune by Mozart end up being called "Nottingham"? 🤔
** which took a good bit longer than was needed for covering Communion. I'm not surprised it's listed as "author and composer unknown" - if I'd written that drivel I wouldn't have admitted it either.
We had:
Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of creation
Abide with me
God whose glory fills the skies
Just as I am without one plea
Alleluia, sing to Jesus
“O worship the King” - Hanover.
“We praise God in the morning” (Alan Price).
“Summer suns are glowing” - Ruth.
“The climate is changing!” (Carolyn Wynfree Gillette - Stowey).
“You shall go out with joy” (Steffi Geiser Rubin & Stuart Dauermann).
I have sung that tune many times but that thought occurred to me this morning as well.
Fixed coding - Nenya, Ecclesiantics Host
The tune is 'Mozart', also known as 'Nottingham'. It comes from the Kyrie of what is often known as 'Mozart's 12th Mass'. However, most scholars now agree that this was not written by Mozart but by Wenzel Müller some time between 1791 and 1803. Müller was a prolific composer, who wrote 166 operas! It has been suggested that the name 'Nottingham' came about because the arrangement may have been made by an unknown musician from Nottingham.
Plausible, I guess.
Let us build a house (zzzzz....)
How sweet the name
Spirit of God unseen as the wind
The church is wherever
Longing for light
The tune sounds as if it could have been written by Mozart, possibly before he started school ...
It is pretty much Go West, yes. I don’t think the Wurzels covered that one (I may be wrong) but there was an Ambrosia custard advert that used the song as “Oo-arr, it’s Ambrosia”.
I can’t be the only one who sometimes sang “Oo-arr with a grateful heart” (or indeed a grapefruit tart).