You will notice that I've made some wry comments about the way my lot do things too, but sure, I can certainly appreciate the points you're making.
And yes, people wandering in and out of services can be distracting but it's something I've got used to, providing it's not too obtrusive.
It's all down to context of course. As you say, people chatting before services is the norm I'm some settings but not others.
In some Anglican churches they have a more traditional service earlier on a Sunday morning followed by a more contemporary one later with a coffee time in between so that people from each service can mingle. Where this happens it obviously creates more scope for chatting and increases the need for there to be something to mark when the next service begins - as well as providing a cue for the live-streaming. So I understand how the practice has developed.
Whatever the case, the thing about the digital countdown mechanisms is something of a tangent from the OP which is about people who may no longer hold to ideas/theology they once held continuing to worship in settings which no longer 'fit' where they are 'at'.
As has been pointed out by several posters this can happen in all sorts of church settings, whether liberal or conservative, formal or informal in style.
That's the sort of issue I've wanted to explore but seem to have been sidetracked by the countdown device. I s'pose I was taken aback a bit because it was a new one on me.
I've seen PowerPoint and such like in church services before but I hadn't realised until recently how much 'tech' there is now in 'contemporary' worship. As you say, this can be a great help for people with auditory issues. I wear hearing aids now and perhaps I'll need more visual cues myself in future. More likely to take the form of icons in my case of course but these things will vary according to context.
That's the sort of issue I've wanted to explore but seem to have been sidetracked by the countdown device. I s'pose I was taken aback a bit because it was a new one on me.
Just a note as perhaps it wasn't something that was all that clear -- it's often the case that the countdown is also broadcast on the stream, which gives people at home a cue to settle down, get a drink/get rid of their drink, give them an idea of how long they have to find their Bible, etc.
And sure you can go down the route of branding/theming it etc, and there church visual consultancies that'll help you do that -- especially in the US - but it's not mandatory.
I've seen PowerPoint and such like in church services before but I hadn't realised until recently how much 'tech' there is now in 'contemporary' worship.
Including stuff you may never notice (musicians playing to a click, all vocalists pitch corrected, and the drums triggered and replaced with perfectly recorded samples).
But being slightly at odds with where a church is at doesn't have to be theological, it could also be technological. Maybe you should ask your nephew for his tips.
We often have choirs which are off-key or clumsy bits during various rituals. These things are irritating but I'm not sure I'd want to see technology used to iron them out.
Although it did help on Sunday when someone realised the mic wasn't plugged in ...
😉
I've not spoken to my nephew about the technological aspects but I'd imagine he'd be fine with all of that. He's a lot younger than I am of course.
There might be scope for a new thread on the use of technology in worship, how it can help and how it might hinder.
Some Orthodox jurisdictions seem to be discouraging the use of hand-held electronic devices for reading biblical and liturgical texts in services on the grounds that it's easier to miss words out on screen.
Nevertheless I sometimes see clergy using electronic devices.
Some RC, Orthodox and other churches live-stream services but I've never seen them use digital countdown devices.
As far as I can see it's something particular to charismatic-lite evangelical Anglican churches.
This is what makes me suspect that there's more to it than simply providing a cue for the techie team responsible for streaming the services or getting people to stop chatting and start engaging with the service - although those are the prime reasons of course.
Just as nothing we wear is 'neutral' but gives a 'message', so it is with whatever we do in church.
You will notice that I've made some wry comments about the way my lot do things too, but sure, I can certainly appreciate the points you're making...I s'pose I was taken aback a bit because it was a new one on me.
[Trimmed for length by me]
I don't think that making wry comments about "your lot" makes it feel any better for those who feel like their traditions are being targeted (and as you know they aren't my traditions either). It doesn't take that away.
I've not spoken to my nephew about the technological aspects but I'd imagine he'd be fine with all of that. He's a lot younger than I am of course.
I meant to the general theme of this thread in so far as coping when you are slightly out of step with the church you are attending (rather than technology narrowly defined as electronics).
Just as nothing we wear is 'neutral' but gives a 'message', so it is with whatever we do in church.
As it is with whatever we *don't* do (see @Pomona's comments about charismatic churches often being more accessible to those with disabilities, and what the lack of accessibility in non-charismatic churches might imply).
A lot of this comes across as an attempt to diagnose the fault beneath something new so that it can be safely pigeon holed and - thus - dismissed, and yes we all engage in that from time to time, but it does seem to be a bit of a trend here.
@Pomona - OK, it may not 'mitigate' what appears to be the kind of trend @chrisstiles has identified which is to identify, isolate and dismiss anything new or different. I can be just as, if not more guilty than others when it comes to that sort of thing.
I remember a piece @mousethief published in The Onion Dome many years ago where Fr Vassily railed against electric lights because they weren't used in '19th century Russia.'
I do strive for balance though but acknowledge I don’t always take the plank out of my own eye.
And apparent specks in other people's may not turn out to be specks at all.
FWIW I agree with you about charismatic or charismatic-style churches, often being more accessible than more 'traditional' churches and that's something we can all learn from irrespective of 'churchmanship' or 'flavour'.
If I do start a new thread on the use of technology in worship I'd have to be careful how I phrased things so as not to give the impression that I'm out to attack or diminish anyone.
My initial thoughts on @chrisstiles's comments about learning from my nephew in terms of how he manages involvement with a church that is in a different place to where he is theologically is as follows:
- I think I can learn from him in terms of attitude. I admire the way he's handled this and also the way the leaders of his church have responded positively to his honesty and candour.
- I don't have any major theological issues with Orthodoxy but there are elements and emphases that rankle and which I'd like to see change however many hundreds of years that takes.
On a more general point I doubt if any of us are completely in synch with absolutely everything that goes on in our respective congregations/parishes or Churches/denominations/networks.
The 'sticking points' are inevitably going to vary according to a range of factors. What's going to be a non-negotiable for some people won't necessarily be one for others.
Which means we can only really deal in broad principles. 🤔
Just to add that screens are not universally better for disabled people. It depends on the disability! We have print copies of the service books, and hymnbooks, for people who struggle to look upwards at a screen or find the background distracting. Most people are happy with the screen though.
We don't have a bell that dings to mark the start of the service. Where did you get that idea?
I know absolutely nothing about how your church starts its services. If you read what I actually wrote, I was describing what happens at the beginning of ours.
Oh, I see you've apologised already. Apology accepted.
Our C of E place uses screens at two of our three Sunday services (exception is the 9 o'clock "traditional" service, organ led with hymn books). The background to projected lyrics can change, presumably at the whim of that week's AV operator. A few years back, someone had the bright idea of using a video depicting waves gently washing up on a sandy shore as the background. Mrs Darda, who suffers from vertigo, was unable to look at the screen. She (and others) complained, with the result that a moving background has never been used since.
Comments
And yes, people wandering in and out of services can be distracting but it's something I've got used to, providing it's not too obtrusive.
It's all down to context of course. As you say, people chatting before services is the norm I'm some settings but not others.
In some Anglican churches they have a more traditional service earlier on a Sunday morning followed by a more contemporary one later with a coffee time in between so that people from each service can mingle. Where this happens it obviously creates more scope for chatting and increases the need for there to be something to mark when the next service begins - as well as providing a cue for the live-streaming. So I understand how the practice has developed.
Whatever the case, the thing about the digital countdown mechanisms is something of a tangent from the OP which is about people who may no longer hold to ideas/theology they once held continuing to worship in settings which no longer 'fit' where they are 'at'.
As has been pointed out by several posters this can happen in all sorts of church settings, whether liberal or conservative, formal or informal in style.
That's the sort of issue I've wanted to explore but seem to have been sidetracked by the countdown device. I s'pose I was taken aback a bit because it was a new one on me.
I've seen PowerPoint and such like in church services before but I hadn't realised until recently how much 'tech' there is now in 'contemporary' worship. As you say, this can be a great help for people with auditory issues. I wear hearing aids now and perhaps I'll need more visual cues myself in future. More likely to take the form of icons in my case of course but these things will vary according to context.
Just a note as perhaps it wasn't something that was all that clear -- it's often the case that the countdown is also broadcast on the stream, which gives people at home a cue to settle down, get a drink/get rid of their drink, give them an idea of how long they have to find their Bible, etc.
And sure you can go down the route of branding/theming it etc, and there church visual consultancies that'll help you do that -- especially in the US - but it's not mandatory.
Including stuff you may never notice (musicians playing to a click, all vocalists pitch corrected, and the drums triggered and replaced with perfectly recorded samples).
But being slightly at odds with where a church is at doesn't have to be theological, it could also be technological. Maybe you should ask your nephew for his tips.
Although it did help on Sunday when someone realised the mic wasn't plugged in ...
😉
I've not spoken to my nephew about the technological aspects but I'd imagine he'd be fine with all of that. He's a lot younger than I am of course.
There might be scope for a new thread on the use of technology in worship, how it can help and how it might hinder.
Some Orthodox jurisdictions seem to be discouraging the use of hand-held electronic devices for reading biblical and liturgical texts in services on the grounds that it's easier to miss words out on screen.
Nevertheless I sometimes see clergy using electronic devices.
But that's by the by.
Some RC, Orthodox and other churches live-stream services but I've never seen them use digital countdown devices.
As far as I can see it's something particular to charismatic-lite evangelical Anglican churches.
This is what makes me suspect that there's more to it than simply providing a cue for the techie team responsible for streaming the services or getting people to stop chatting and start engaging with the service - although those are the prime reasons of course.
Just as nothing we wear is 'neutral' but gives a 'message', so it is with whatever we do in church.
Mmm ... new thread?
[Trimmed for length by me]
I don't think that making wry comments about "your lot" makes it feel any better for those who feel like their traditions are being targeted (and as you know they aren't my traditions either). It doesn't take that away.
I meant to the general theme of this thread in so far as coping when you are slightly out of step with the church you are attending (rather than technology narrowly defined as electronics).
As it is with whatever we *don't* do (see @Pomona's comments about charismatic churches often being more accessible to those with disabilities, and what the lack of accessibility in non-charismatic churches might imply).
A lot of this comes across as an attempt to diagnose the fault beneath something new so that it can be safely pigeon holed and - thus - dismissed, and yes we all engage in that from time to time, but it does seem to be a bit of a trend here.
I remember a piece @mousethief published in The Onion Dome many years ago where Fr Vassily railed against electric lights because they weren't used in '19th century Russia.'
I do strive for balance though but acknowledge I don’t always take the plank out of my own eye.
And apparent specks in other people's may not turn out to be specks at all.
FWIW I agree with you about charismatic or charismatic-style churches, often being more accessible than more 'traditional' churches and that's something we can all learn from irrespective of 'churchmanship' or 'flavour'.
If I do start a new thread on the use of technology in worship I'd have to be careful how I phrased things so as not to give the impression that I'm out to attack or diminish anyone.
My initial thoughts on @chrisstiles's comments about learning from my nephew in terms of how he manages involvement with a church that is in a different place to where he is theologically is as follows:
- I think I can learn from him in terms of attitude. I admire the way he's handled this and also the way the leaders of his church have responded positively to his honesty and candour.
- I don't have any major theological issues with Orthodoxy but there are elements and emphases that rankle and which I'd like to see change however many hundreds of years that takes.
On a more general point I doubt if any of us are completely in synch with absolutely everything that goes on in our respective congregations/parishes or Churches/denominations/networks.
The 'sticking points' are inevitably going to vary according to a range of factors. What's going to be a non-negotiable for some people won't necessarily be one for others.
Which means we can only really deal in broad principles. 🤔
I know absolutely nothing about how your church starts its services. If you read what I actually wrote, I was describing what happens at the beginning of ours.
Oh, I see you've apologised already. Apology accepted.