I think there's a distinction to be drawn between cultural traditions immigrant communities take with them and the activities of those who "discover their heritage" generations later in a way that is unconnected to the customs and practices of the "old country" they're laying claim to.
And yet if it helps them connect to that heritage, even if imperfectly, I say more power to them.
Personally I'm not overly bothered but I can see why "Styrofoam Scots" and "Plastic Paddys" get on people's nerves.
I can see that as well, and it would get on my nerves too, I suspect. (And as an American with a fair amount of Scottish ancestry, I can particularly understand the reactions of some Scots.)
The problem is that @ThunderBunk is conflating that phenomenon with the so-called hyphenated American practice, which has very specific historical and political roots and meanings that are unrelated to problems like “tartan tourism,” “Styrofoam Scots” and “Plastic Paddys.” And his objections demonstrate total unawareness and indifference to that history, including how “we’re all Americans” has been and is still used against immigrant communities. He’s attempting to school North Americans on a part of North American culture and history that he clearly doesn’t understand
It is no coincidence that with all the varieties of hyphenated Americans, one pretty much never hears “English American” or “Scottish American.” At least, it’s my experience that they’re very rare. The list of hyphenated Americans communities is composed almost exclusively of immigrant communities (including descendants of enslaved people brought here involuntarily) that were and often still are heavily discriminated against and excluded from full integration into American culture.
I'm going to break my silence, and say that it's exactly the Americans of English, Scottish and, by observation, Italian and Irish heritage I'm talking about. I'm certainly not talking about the descendants of enslaved people: that's entirely outside my experience.
I have also experienced being an Englishman abroad. I am hopefully not as obnoxious as many would expect, but that is not for me to say. I have certainly seen how easy it is to slip into parodies of the culture one comes from, presumably because one is no longer surrounded by it.
I think that is directly germane to the original purpose of the thread, precisely because one route into conservativism is to lose touch with a culture or other phenomenon one identifies with as it changes. One's idea of it ossifies, and becomes an object of inherently conservative, at least with a small c, nostalgic longing, since nothing can be ass good as that.
Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive, and all that.
I think that is directly germane to the original purpose of the thread, precisely because one route into conservativism is to lose touch with a culture or other phenomenon one identifies with as it changes.
Around the time of Brexit it was noted that a number of prominent Brexiters had grown up abroad (Carswell, Hannan et al).
I think there's a distinction to be drawn between cultural traditions immigrant communities take with them and the activities of those who "discover their heritage" generations later in a way that is unconnected to the customs and practices of the "old country" they're laying claim to.
But again, the Japanese treating Christmas Eve as a romantic date night like Valentine's Day in the US and eating KFC and strawberry shortcake and saying "this is Christmas" when they're almost all not Christians presents no problem for anyone outside the country, no more than all the English language stuff printed on T-shirts there does. All the people here who have a tattoo that they say is the Chinese symbol for life or peace or whatever (but probably means something random, nonsensical or stupid) are not hurting the Chinese in China. And all the people who will drink green beer here on March 17 are hurting no one in Ireland by doing so. If they go to Ireland and expect to drink green beer, I hope the Irish give them a well-deserved ration of shit for it.
Get mad about Americans funding the IRA, and I'm on board. But I'll never feel bad about going to the Auld Dubliner. https://aulddubliner.com/ Co-founded by a native-born American and a guy from Limerick - should the Irish guy not have started a pub in Long Beach?
And yes, people do stupid stuff when trying to connect to a heritage that wasn't passed down to them. But however wrong-headed and even offensive you might find their actions, can you for a moment empathize with people who want to be rooted in something?
And yes, people do stupid stuff when trying to connect to a heritage that wasn't passed down to them. But however wrong-headed and even offensive you might find their actions, can you for a moment empathize with people who want to be rooted in something?
Of course, which is one of the reasons I don't get worked up about it. I'm well aware of wanting to feel attached to a distinct culture, because I feel it too. I'm a new Scot, born in England no less, and an incomer to an island community. I don't - can't - claim the heritage of my home island as my own, I don't feel I have that right (and if I did there are folk who'd soon set me straight), but I was born in a part of England where neither of my parents grew up and don't feel that's my heritage. For a time I reached for my grandfather's Welsh identity, but that could never be really "mine" either.
I think there's a distinction to be drawn between cultural traditions immigrant communities take with them and the activities of those who "discover their heritage" generations later in a way that is unconnected to the customs and practices of the "old country" they're laying claim to.
The technical term for this, which I have learned in the USA, is "cultural appropriation" and it's often a cause for controversy as people bicker over who has the right to claim the cultural artifacts of various cultures. Some cases are rather blatant, others get hazier. I generally try to be respectful.
I think there's a distinction to be drawn between cultural traditions immigrant communities take with them and the activities of those who "discover their heritage" generations later in a way that is unconnected to the customs and practices of the "old country" they're laying claim to.
The technical term for this, which I have learned in the USA, is "cultural appropriation" . . . .
“Cultural appropriation,” as I understand it, is a slightly different thing. Related, and some of what has been described can be categorized as cultural appropriation, but different.
Cultural appropriation,, again as I understand it, happens when members of one culture (often a dominant culture) adopt cultural elements or practices from another culture (often a minority culture) in ways viewed as inauthentic, disrespectful and/or indifferent to their original cultural significance, or possibly even ways that are taboo in their original culture Cultural appropriation also often involves lack of acknowledgment of the original culture.
I think there's a distinction to be drawn between cultural traditions immigrant communities take with them and the activities of those who "discover their heritage" generations later in a way that is unconnected to the customs and practices of the "old country" they're laying claim to.
The technical term for this, which I have learned in the USA, is "cultural appropriation" . . . .
“Cultural appropriation,” as I understand it, is a slightly different thing. Related, and some of what has been described can be categorized as cultural appropriation, but different.
Cultural appropriation,, again as I understand it, happens when members of one culture (often a dominant culture) adopt cultural elements or practices from another culture (often a minority culture) in ways viewed as inauthentic, disrespectful and/or indifferent to their original cultural significance, or possibly even ways that are taboo in their original culture Cultural appropriation also often involves lack of acknowledgment of the original culture.
That's a fair definition. I guess it depends on how far you're allowed to go and reclaim heritage.
Cultural appropriation,, again as I understand it, happens when members of one culture (often a dominant culture) adopt cultural elements or practices from another culture (often a minority culture) in ways viewed as inauthentic, disrespectful and/or indifferent to their original cultural significance, or possibly even ways that are taboo in their original culture
Right, and my impression from observation and talking to friends is that a large part of the irritation over the "Plastic Paddy" phenomena comes from a good proportion of the Irish feeling that their identity has been shaped by their more recent past, which they don't share with Irish-Americans.
So in that sense, it's felt as a kind of cultural appropriation.
Following discussion backstage, we feel this thread has moved beyond its original remit onto a wide range of subjects which would better be discussed in Epiphanies. We don't feel it can be salvaged in its current form and as a result it is being closed.
Comments
And yet if it helps them connect to that heritage, even if imperfectly, I say more power to them.
The problem is that @ThunderBunk is conflating that phenomenon with the so-called hyphenated American practice, which has very specific historical and political roots and meanings that are unrelated to problems like “tartan tourism,” “Styrofoam Scots” and “Plastic Paddys.” And his objections demonstrate total unawareness and indifference to that history, including how “we’re all Americans” has been and is still used against immigrant communities. He’s attempting to school North Americans on a part of North American culture and history that he clearly doesn’t understand
It is no coincidence that with all the varieties of hyphenated Americans, one pretty much never hears “English American” or “Scottish American.” At least, it’s my experience that they’re very rare. The list of hyphenated Americans communities is composed almost exclusively of immigrant communities (including descendants of enslaved people brought here involuntarily) that were and often still are heavily discriminated against and excluded from full integration into American culture.
Now resuming my silence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing
As a Canadian of Scottish extraction, I am quite fond of my Glasgow Rangers scarf. I guess I am a Styrofoam Scot.
I think that is directly germane to the original purpose of the thread, precisely because one route into conservativism is to lose touch with a culture or other phenomenon one identifies with as it changes. One's idea of it ossifies, and becomes an object of inherently conservative, at least with a small c, nostalgic longing, since nothing can be ass good as that.
Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive, and all that.
Around the time of Brexit it was noted that a number of prominent Brexiters had grown up abroad (Carswell, Hannan et al).
There is. @ThunderBunk didn't do so.
But again, the Japanese treating Christmas Eve as a romantic date night like Valentine's Day in the US and eating KFC and strawberry shortcake and saying "this is Christmas" when they're almost all not Christians presents no problem for anyone outside the country, no more than all the English language stuff printed on T-shirts there does. All the people here who have a tattoo that they say is the Chinese symbol for life or peace or whatever (but probably means something random, nonsensical or stupid) are not hurting the Chinese in China. And all the people who will drink green beer here on March 17 are hurting no one in Ireland by doing so. If they go to Ireland and expect to drink green beer, I hope the Irish give them a well-deserved ration of shit for it.
Get mad about Americans funding the IRA, and I'm on board. But I'll never feel bad about going to the Auld Dubliner. https://aulddubliner.com/ Co-founded by a native-born American and a guy from Limerick - should the Irish guy not have started a pub in Long Beach?
And yes, people do stupid stuff when trying to connect to a heritage that wasn't passed down to them. But however wrong-headed and even offensive you might find their actions, can you for a moment empathize with people who want to be rooted in something?
Of course, which is one of the reasons I don't get worked up about it. I'm well aware of wanting to feel attached to a distinct culture, because I feel it too. I'm a new Scot, born in England no less, and an incomer to an island community. I don't - can't - claim the heritage of my home island as my own, I don't feel I have that right (and if I did there are folk who'd soon set me straight), but I was born in a part of England where neither of my parents grew up and don't feel that's my heritage. For a time I reached for my grandfather's Welsh identity, but that could never be really "mine" either.
The technical term for this, which I have learned in the USA, is "cultural appropriation" and it's often a cause for controversy as people bicker over who has the right to claim the cultural artifacts of various cultures. Some cases are rather blatant, others get hazier. I generally try to be respectful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Legislation
Cultural appropriation,, again as I understand it, happens when members of one culture (often a dominant culture) adopt cultural elements or practices from another culture (often a minority culture) in ways viewed as inauthentic, disrespectful and/or indifferent to their original cultural significance, or possibly even ways that are taboo in their original culture Cultural appropriation also often involves lack of acknowledgment of the original culture.
That's a fair definition. I guess it depends on how far you're allowed to go and reclaim heritage.
Right, and my impression from observation and talking to friends is that a large part of the irritation over the "Plastic Paddy" phenomena comes from a good proportion of the Irish feeling that their identity has been shaped by their more recent past, which they don't share with Irish-Americans.
So in that sense, it's felt as a kind of cultural appropriation.
Following discussion backstage, we feel this thread has moved beyond its original remit onto a wide range of subjects which would better be discussed in Epiphanies. We don't feel it can be salvaged in its current form and as a result it is being closed.
Hostly beret off
la vie en rouge, Purgatory host