To echo something you wrote on another thread about not dissing RCs and Orthodox @Bullfrog and if my post was misleading, I'm not accusing you of metropolitan elitism.
I was simply making the observation that metropolitan elitism is a thing, not accusing you of it. You've shared a few things about your particular background on these boards before and whilst I've said I can't 'speak to' your situation I can certainly feel your passion.
I think we are posting at cross purposes here.
And yes, I think things can become too binary and polarised and that bothers me too.
Thanks. I appreciate that.
Just because someone is from a small town does not excuse their political behavior.
I've had too many heated arguments in both directions about the urban/rural divide in America. I think you inadvertently made yourself a lightning rod for some pent up frustration I have with America's inability to listen to itself.
And one thing I still carry from small town USA is a lot of people who end up feeling neglected and ignored, this is true. I think @Nick Tamen gets it also. That much I sympathize with, and it makes me angry. I think even @WhimsicalChristian sees that, and thinks he's recruiting them for the far right. The bit after the comma is where I disagree.
My impression is our fearless leader (also the far right, these are to me more or less the same) are feeding in that despair and turning it into hate, nativism, and scarcity mentality. They think if we can turn enough wars on we can revert to a protectionist economy. This will, in theory, force more economic opportunity back into the factories that left places like my hometown. Shout out to Kelly Tire Plant! Trouble is, that ain't happening. Not without a lot of union busting and a huge drop in quality of life, which nobody wants to talk about too loudly.
It's still hella expensive to "Buy American," even after the tariffs. And nobody wants to pay those wages in depressed small towns. Just ask them about raising the minimum wage, all the conservatives will complain mightily about how business owners already can't afford to stay afloat.
I was just texting with a friend from high school about how the county government had discreetly, without public comment, decided to set up a data center in the former site of a paper mill that had recently shuttered. Will this bring back the old economy? No. Will it generate the same employment opportunity? No. It might bring in a few jobs. It'll also drive up electric bills, mess up the river, and generally not do much for the community.
And my friend's impression is the county leadership didn't have a meeting because they knew it'd inspire controversy. They didn't want to deal with the heat. But that's small town politics. There's a lot of quiet corruption that goes on and nobody does much about it because it's a lot of work without much return. And most of the young folks just head out to the cities, kinda like I did.
So, yeah. Not everyone back home is conservative but most everyone is kinda ticked off and feels "left behind" and that does make Trumpism kind of weirdly appealing, even if I'm pretty sure the man ain't going to do jack shit for anyone in the area. And he hasn't.
So...me? A big city liberal elitist? Nah, I'm a much more complicated beast than that. I wouldn't think to tell them what to do, but I do have some concerns.
I've had people calling me a dumb liberal since I was a kid. And now they want to call me an oppressor? As the old man used to say: SAD!
The "big city metropolitan elite" allegation often seems to me to be a cop-out, and ad hominem attack to avoid addressing the issue at hand. Part of my suspicion here is that if you live in a rural area and have left wing views you get accused of wanting diversity for others [in big cities] while not 'suffering' it yourself. It's another variation on the "champagne socialist" vs "politics of envy" allegations. There is no legitimate way to be left wing in the eyes of the right.
And I really need to find a better paradox to append myself to, because I love paradoxes. But the paradox of tolerance isn't something I came up with. That notions is...*checks wikipedia*...older than my dad. Thank Karl Popper for that one.
CK Chesterton says Christianity is so effective because it is a religion of paradox.
@The_Riv Riv and @Nick Tamen it was my comment days (weeks?) ago on the perceived threat to conventional definitions of masculinity and femininity.
That can be considered a harm to some.
The question we asked is exactly how are those “some” actually harmed by perceived threats to conventional definitions of masculinity and femininity? Just because I consider something to be a harm doesn’t mean it actually is a harm.
Exactly how are they harmed by threats to conventional definitions? By harms to the social fabric.
Certainly the definition of harm depends on what you believe in, be it left or right or centre.
@WhimsicalChristian Conventional definitions of masculinity and femininity change over time, and across cultures. For instance, women wearing trousers, men wearing make up, and so on.
Of course.
Doesn't make objecting to your current conventional definition wrong. That's your right in a liberal democracy be it left, right or centre.
What's this 'social fabric'? Twill? Polyester? Does it like going to parties?
It shouldn't be hard if it's a serious and widespread matter to point to actual human beings in one's life and say how they are concretely affected. How has it directly and personally impacted their lives?
@The_Riv Riv and @Nick Tamen it was my comment days (weeks?) ago on the perceived threat to conventional definitions of masculinity and femininity.
That can be considered a harm to some.
The question we asked is exactly how are those “some” actually harmed by perceived threats to conventional definitions of masculinity and femininity? Just because I consider something to be a harm doesn’t mean it actually is a harm.
Exactly how are they harmed by threats to conventional definitions? By harms to the social fabric.
Certainly the definition of harm depends on what you believe in, be it left or right or centre.
That's the point. It's variable.
You’re still not answering the question. Exactly how is the social fabric actually harmed? It’s simply not enough to say the social fabric is harmed; if there is real harm, then it shouldn’t be difficult to describe that real harm and its effects.
Or to put it another way, you’ve asserted that a boy wearing a dress to a prom harms the social fabric. What evidence can you offer that supports that assertion?
The "big city metropolitan elite" allegation often seems to me to be a cop-out, and ad hominem attack to avoid addressing the issue at hand. Part of my suspicion here is that if you live in a rural area and have left wing views you get accused of wanting diversity for others [in big cities] while not 'suffering' it yourself. It's another variation on the "champagne socialist" vs "politics of envy" allegations. There is no legitimate way to be left wing in the eyes of the right.
No, I think the 'champagne socialist' thing can be a reality. Look at Mandelson. Look at his dad.
There are cavils about the 'metropolitan elite' from the left as well as the right.
I understand what you are getting at but I've encountered plenty of core working-class 'red wall' Labour supporters who feel patronised by certain elements of what we might call the 'liberal establishment.'
I don't see it as a binary left vs right issue.
I'd agree that in some conservative small c and Big C circles being left wing to any extent is seen as an aberration. I've come across that in true-blue rural Tory heartlands.
I've also come across true blue Tory voters who seem unable to understand why anyone would vote Labour unless they were 'horny-handed sons of toil' and are completely discombobulated when they find people in 'professional' jobs who vote Labour.
But I think things have shifted from the time when, in traditional Labour strongholds, not voting Labour but voting Conservative was seen as a sign of social advancement. Think Alderman Thatcher.
I can see what you are saying but I think it's more nuanced and complicated now.
'Cohesion' based on 'like us' in terms of birthplace, language, skin colour, attitudes etc I don't really grok. Solidarity I can grasp, e.g. I feel concern for things that affect women per women, irrespective of nationality.
The "big city metropolitan elite" allegation often seems to me to be a cop-out, and ad hominem attack to avoid addressing the issue at hand. Part of my suspicion here is that if you live in a rural area and have left wing views you get accused of wanting diversity for others [in big cities] while not 'suffering' it yourself. It's another variation on the "champagne socialist" vs "politics of envy" allegations. There is no legitimate way to be left wing in the eyes of the right.
No, I think the 'champagne socialist' thing can be a reality. Look at Mandelson. Look at his dad.
Presumably you mean his grandfather. But in what sense was Mandelson 'socialist'?
The "big city metropolitan elite" allegation often seems to me to be a cop-out, and ad hominem attack to avoid addressing the issue at hand. Part of my suspicion here is that if you live in a rural area and have left wing views you get accused of wanting diversity for others [in big cities] while not 'suffering' it yourself. It's another variation on the "champagne socialist" vs "politics of envy" allegations. There is no legitimate way to be left wing in the eyes of the right.
No, I think the 'champagne socialist' thing can be a reality. Look at Mandelson. Look at his dad.
Presumably you mean his grandfather. But in what sense was Mandelson 'socialist'?
@The_Riv Riv and @Nick Tamen it was my comment days (weeks?) ago on the perceived threat to conventional definitions of masculinity and femininity.
That can be considered a harm to some.
The question we asked is exactly how are those “some” actually harmed by perceived threats to conventional definitions of masculinity and femininity? Just because I consider something to be a harm doesn’t mean it actually is a harm.
Exactly how are they harmed by threats to conventional definitions? By harms to the social fabric.
Certainly the definition of harm depends on what you believe in, be it left or right or centre.
That's the point. It's variable.
I think you’re alluding to people taking offense. That’s self inflicted.
Comments
Thanks. I appreciate that.
Just because someone is from a small town does not excuse their political behavior.
I've had too many heated arguments in both directions about the urban/rural divide in America. I think you inadvertently made yourself a lightning rod for some pent up frustration I have with America's inability to listen to itself.
And one thing I still carry from small town USA is a lot of people who end up feeling neglected and ignored, this is true. I think @Nick Tamen gets it also. That much I sympathize with, and it makes me angry. I think even @WhimsicalChristian sees that, and thinks he's recruiting them for the far right. The bit after the comma is where I disagree.
My impression is our fearless leader (also the far right, these are to me more or less the same) are feeding in that despair and turning it into hate, nativism, and scarcity mentality. They think if we can turn enough wars on we can revert to a protectionist economy. This will, in theory, force more economic opportunity back into the factories that left places like my hometown. Shout out to Kelly Tire Plant! Trouble is, that ain't happening. Not without a lot of union busting and a huge drop in quality of life, which nobody wants to talk about too loudly.
It's still hella expensive to "Buy American," even after the tariffs. And nobody wants to pay those wages in depressed small towns. Just ask them about raising the minimum wage, all the conservatives will complain mightily about how business owners already can't afford to stay afloat.
I was just texting with a friend from high school about how the county government had discreetly, without public comment, decided to set up a data center in the former site of a paper mill that had recently shuttered. Will this bring back the old economy? No. Will it generate the same employment opportunity? No. It might bring in a few jobs. It'll also drive up electric bills, mess up the river, and generally not do much for the community.
And my friend's impression is the county leadership didn't have a meeting because they knew it'd inspire controversy. They didn't want to deal with the heat. But that's small town politics. There's a lot of quiet corruption that goes on and nobody does much about it because it's a lot of work without much return. And most of the young folks just head out to the cities, kinda like I did.
So, yeah. Not everyone back home is conservative but most everyone is kinda ticked off and feels "left behind" and that does make Trumpism kind of weirdly appealing, even if I'm pretty sure the man ain't going to do jack shit for anyone in the area. And he hasn't.
So...me? A big city liberal elitist? Nah, I'm a much more complicated beast than that. I wouldn't think to tell them what to do, but I do have some concerns.
I've had people calling me a dumb liberal since I was a kid. And now they want to call me an oppressor? As the old man used to say: SAD!
CK Chesterton says Christianity is so effective because it is a religion of paradox.
Exactly how are they harmed by threats to conventional definitions? By harms to the social fabric.
Certainly the definition of harm depends on what you believe in, be it left or right or centre.
That's the point. It's variable.
Of course.
Doesn't make objecting to your current conventional definition wrong. That's your right in a liberal democracy be it left, right or centre.
It shouldn't be hard if it's a serious and widespread matter to point to actual human beings in one's life and say how they are concretely affected. How has it directly and personally impacted their lives?
Or to put it another way, you’ve asserted that a boy wearing a dress to a prom harms the social fabric. What evidence can you offer that supports that assertion?
No, I think the 'champagne socialist' thing can be a reality. Look at Mandelson. Look at his dad.
There are cavils about the 'metropolitan elite' from the left as well as the right.
I understand what you are getting at but I've encountered plenty of core working-class 'red wall' Labour supporters who feel patronised by certain elements of what we might call the 'liberal establishment.'
I don't see it as a binary left vs right issue.
I'd agree that in some conservative small c and Big C circles being left wing to any extent is seen as an aberration. I've come across that in true-blue rural Tory heartlands.
I've also come across true blue Tory voters who seem unable to understand why anyone would vote Labour unless they were 'horny-handed sons of toil' and are completely discombobulated when they find people in 'professional' jobs who vote Labour.
But I think things have shifted from the time when, in traditional Labour strongholds, not voting Labour but voting Conservative was seen as a sign of social advancement. Think Alderman Thatcher.
I can see what you are saying but I think it's more nuanced and complicated now.
Nylon. Flimsy, artificial and highly flammable.
'Cohesion' based on 'like us' in terms of birthplace, language, skin colour, attitudes etc I don't really grok. Solidarity I can grasp, e.g. I feel concern for things that affect women per women, irrespective of nationality.
Presumably you mean his grandfather. But in what sense was Mandelson 'socialist'?
This.
I think you’re alluding to people taking offense. That’s self inflicted.