Contemporary evangelicalism. A changing face?

This thread springs from the discussion on 'The Rapture' as my general impression is that eschatological speculation of that kind has diminished within evangelical circles in recent years - although it has been given a boost in some quarters by events in the Middle East.

I know that evangelicalism is always in a state of flux and is a pretty dynamic and flexible thing - and indeed, wonder whether it is even possible to think of a coherent definition of the term any more.

Nevertheless, I am interested in exploring changes and developments in the evangelical landscape over the last 30 years or so.

It strikes me that some sections have become more 'reflective' and contemplative and slightly more 'Quaker-y'. These sections have become more eclectic, albeit in a selective way, drawing on popular figures from outside the movement and even outside Protestantism - Nouwen, Rohr etc.

To be fair, there were always more mystical types within evangelicalism, into Madame Guyon and Brother Lawrence and so forth, but I get the impression that there is more awareness of the more Catholic and sacramental traditions than there would have been back in the day.

There also seems to have been a shift in some quarters on 'Epiphany' issues and things like sex before marriage.

At the same time, I think that here in the UK there's also been a definite anti-EU, anti-immigration, anti-Islam tendency in some sections of the evangelical constituency - despite the fact that people who weren't born in the UK make up an increasing proportion of evangelical congregations.

There also appears to be more of an acceptance of and emphasis on the arts than there used to be, but in a somewhat pragmatic and utilitarian way - but nevertheless...

I'm saying all of this as an outside observer and realise that my perspective is a partial one. I don't know what's happening with black-led and ethnic minority churches, for instance and my perspective is obviously UK-centric and more suburban than inner-city.

Overall, and I don't mean this in a patronising way, I get the impression that some sections of contemporary evangelicalism are more holistic than they were when I was an earnest young evangelical and other sections less so.

Perhaps t'was ever thus.
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Comments

  • The lack of comments may suggest that few, if any, of us are close enough to (British) evangelicalism to say anything meaningful. Or that we consider it to have too many "strands" to make generalisations,
  • Thanks for being the first to reply.

    I think you're probably right.

    Perhaps 10 years or even 5 years ago there'd have been more of a response. There aren't many evangelicals aboard Ship these days and yes, the fragmentation and range of expressions makes it hard to generalise.

    It's a tradition I'm still interested in, though and not simply because I used to be involved with it.

    I'd still consider myself evangelical in terms of a commitment to the Gospel, even though I wouldn't frame that in quite the same way as I would have done.
  • I'd still consider myself evangelical in terms of a commitment to the Gospel, even though I wouldn't frame that in quite the same way as I would have done.
    I think that could be true for many, who prefer not to use the E-word to describe themselves because of its links to the American scene, to prosperity and/or abuse scandals, or to legalistic (possibly misogynistic) attitudes.

  • My pennyworth if I may.
    Evangelicalism has always been a tapestry of different threads. Derek tidball (former principal of London bible college iirc) used the analogy of a rubicks cube to describe the range of options in regard to various layers of theology and praxis (soteriology, ecclesiology, worship styles, eschatology, politics/social action etc etc).
    I suspect that whichever aspects seem prominent at any given time the others (often contradictory and balancing ) are still to be found somewhere in the mix.
    I've certainly seen many of the things that @Gamma Gamaliel mentions.
    In this current social media disinformation age the parroting of various right wing "talking points" (by folk in the pews I hasten to add not clergy/official leaders) is concerning.
    I also suspect that there are trends that are puffed by the media so one issue will become a hot potato for a bit if it can be marketed to sell books or other stuff.
  • I think you're right about the right-wing talking points and culture war issues. Evangelicals, and I count myself one even if I'm on the more open/liberal part of the spectrum, have always found it necessary to police behaviour. As society has changed the behaviours we find the need to police are different.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    I also still consider myself theologically evangelical. But, to follow the description outlined by @Twangist, my praxis has never really been mainstream contemporary (at whatever time) evangelicalism. Thus, while I can comment on a discussion of points of evangelical theology, I'm standing on the outside and thus unable to comment on the points raised in the OP (I'm also bemused over the Rapture thing, but I always have been bemused by that).
  • I think Tidball's Rubik's Cube analogy is a good one and thanks @Twangist for bringing it to our attention.

    I can also understand the position of someone like @Alan Cresswell as I think it's entirely possible to be evangelical theologically without subscribing to one or other of the particular subcultures through which it tends to operate.

    I'm sure that happens in other Christian traditions too.

    I've mentioned my nephew on these boards before. He is fairly liberal in theology but attends a pretty full-on evangelical church as it's the only place he can meet Christians of his own age. There aren't any young people in the more liberal churches in his area.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited September 28
    I think Tidball's Rubik's Cube analogy is a good one and thanks @Twangist for bringing it to our attention.

    I can also understand the position of someone like @Alan Cresswell as I think it's entirely possible to be evangelical theologically without subscribing to one or other of the particular subcultures through which it tends to operate.

    I'm sure that happens in other Christian traditions too.

    I've mentioned my nephew on these boards before. He is fairly liberal in theology but attends a pretty full-on evangelical church as it's the only place he can meet Christians of his own age. There aren't any young people in the more liberal churches in his area.

    I'm closer to 60 than 50 and the only place I'd be likely to find people my age or younger would be some Charevo place.

    Still rather stick pins in my eyes.
  • Hmmm ... shame isn't it?

    Some US Episcopalian clergy I met during the summer told me that in parts of the Mid-West or the rural South the only options available were charismatic evangelical or conservative evangelical churches of one form or other.

    If you weren't an evangelical or a charismatic you didn't go to church at all.

    The same would be true in reverse, of course in traditionally Orthodox or RC countries. If you weren't Orthodox or RC there might not be any immediately available alternatives.

    To some extent here in the UK I think a parallel applies with the decline of 'traditional' churches and more liberal outfits.

    The more liberal Anglican parish here is down to around 30 regulars compared to around 80 before the pandemic.

    I remember hearing an interview with a sociologist from Lancaster University who conducted a study of religion in Kendal.

    The only churches which were holding their own were the evangelical ones.

    The unintended corollary of that was that people got the impression that to be a Christian you had to be prepared to give a 'testimony' in a service or to wave your arms in the air or speak in tongues.

    If you weren't prepared to do any of those things then church wasn't for you.

    That's not the 'fault' of the evangelicals I'd suggest, if anything it's more of an indictment of the more liberal or sacramental churches.

    That's if we are even going to play the blame game of course.

    I'd suggest there are complex sociological and societal forces at work that are beyond anyone's control.

    I do believe in 'intentionality' in Christian worship and discipleship but don't see that as necessarily tethered to any particular expression of the faith.

    You can be a very 'intentional' and committed liberal Christian, of course.
  • Some US Episcopalian clergy I met during the summer told me that in parts of the Mid-West or the rural South the only options available were charismatic evangelical or conservative evangelical churches of one form or other.
    I’d be curious to know where those Episcopal* priests (or deacons or bishops) were from. Having lived all of my life in the American South, and much of it in the rural American South, would have to think that such parts are the exception rather than the rule. If nothing else, there are Methodists pretty much everywhere in the South, and while many may be more conservative on certain issues (and may indeed in recent years have left the United Methodist Church for the newly-formed Global Methodist Church), they generally don’t identify as “evangelical” as that term is typically used in the U.S., at least in my experience.
    * Pedant alert: Episcopalian is a noun. The adjective is Episcopal.


  • Just to give my thoughts - as another who is theologically evangelical, but refuses to use the term as it has been hijacked.

    Evangelicalism used to be a broad spread of positions, ultimately resting on the bible being the ultimate source of authority. And this embraced - just about - a whole lot of views from mine to rampant fundamentalism.

    But there has been a rift - a chasm - in the last decades, primarily defined around the whole issue of homosexuality, but actually covering a much wider set of issues. It is the same tensions that have always existed, but the fundamentalist side have demanded that they are the only true evangelicals. In fact, the only true Christians (another title I tend to reject as being associated with far too many repugnant views).

    So yes, it is changing. Not for the better. Where this will end, I have no idea, but I suspect the fundamentalist end will become anathema to pretty well everyone in time. Possibly, not before they have destroyed as much as they can.


  • I have started, and then deleted, a comment that Lutherans have long considered themselves evangelical catholics. Just to show how ambiguous the term can be.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    I have started, and then deleted, a comment that Lutherans have long considered themselves evangelical catholics. Just to show how ambiguous the term can be.
    Lutherans are, I would argue, the original Evangelicals.

    The ambiguity generated by the multiple denotations and connotations of “evangelical” is the challenge, and the question becomes “what does the average person associate with the word ‘evangelical?’” The answer will depend on context—national context, cultural context, the speaker’s context, etc. In my part of the US, I’d hazard the guess that people are much more likely to associate “evangelical” with Southern Baptists or non-denominational churches than with Lutherans.


  • Well yes, and of course evangelisch in German simply means Protestant, if I understand it correctly.

    @Nick Tamen the Episcopalian clergy I met were largely from the Great Lakes area, Colorado or the Atlantic north-east, so no, they would not be as au-fait with the rural South as your good self.

    One was from Florida and another from Kentucky and they'd grown up in fundamentalist churches.

    I am aware of the Methodist presence in the Deep South. I've met Methodist ministers from the Southern US who were far from fundamentalist.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there are only fundamentalist churches in Southern US towns and cities. My impression of the Southern US is that all major churches and denominations will be present in the larger towns and then some.

    But these US Episcopalians did insist that there were places which had just two churches, both different flavours of fundamentalism, sometimes opposite one another on a dusty crossroads somewhere in Tumbleweed or Dust-Bowl County ...

    I will defer, though, to your observations on-the-ground.
  • I resist most labels. There is a sense in which we are all evangelical if our faith is founded on the Jesus of the Gospels. I was brought up in the evangelical fold. When I went away to university I was delighted to discover an evangelical Anglican church where you weren’t expected to switch off your brain to study the faith or to worship.
    Within a couple of years, the powers that be in the Christian Union became obsessed with a way of thinking all about power. Meant to be about the power of the Holy Spirit, all too soon it became about the power of those in charge, followed by a leap into full on charismatic stuff, which is where I parted company.
    In more recent years our town suffered from the ultra fundamentalist evangelical ( non- charismatic) vicar who would having nothing to do with Christians who did not see or do things his way. He withdrew from anything ecumenical: the Good Friday act of witness, Remembrance Day, Christian Aid, even from the team who led services in care homes. If that is modern evangelicalism, I don’t want to be linked with it in any way.
  • Nor me.

  • My formative years were spent in a kindly and gentle Brethren Assembly. Mrs RR and I have been part of not a few evan churches and even had leadership positions.
    In the last ten years we have seen a hardening of hearts wrt LBGT issues and women priesthood and we had to move on. We now worship in a very ordinary Anglican church and take great comfort from the regular eucharist services. I pray and share with a lovely Catholic priest.
    I'm happy to demonstrate the gifts of the Spirit and remain in touch with old evan friends, but believe that any church that doesn't emphasise and nurture the fruits of the Spirit has gone badly astray. What St Augustine wrote all those many years ago is pertinent:

    Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought. If, on the other hand, a man draws a meaning from them that may be used for the building up of love, even though he does not happen upon the precise meaning which the author whom he reads intended to express in that place, his error is not pernicious, and he is wholly clear from the charge of deception.” and later “if his mistaken interpretation tends to build up love, which is the end of the commandment, he goes astray in much the same way as a man who by mistake quits the high road, but yet reaches through the fields the same place to which the road leads.

    From "On Christian Doctrine".
  • @Puzzler, I don't think it is modern evangelicalism so much as a reaction amongst some - but by no means all - conservative evangelicals against what they see as apostasy and liberalism elsewhere.

    In that sense, it's something of a throwback.

    I remember some respected evangelical pundits around 20 years ago now predicting that more fundamentalist forms of conservative evangelicalism would enjoy something of a resurgence, but this would only be a temporary knee-jerk thing.

    I tend to agree with their analysis. I've come across a few die-hards like the vicar you mention but my sense is that they are few and far between and don't represent a groundswell as such.

    But as other posters have observed, it's hard to generalise - although I've just done so!

    I'm not sure anything substantial 'emerged' from the 'emergent' thing of the early 2000s or from 'post-evangelicalism' - jokingly referred to as 'pre-catholicism' at times.

    My overall impression though is that other than among the die-hards contemporary evangelicalism in the UK tends to be more 'open' and nuanced but again it's hard to generalise.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    As another (British) one-time evangelical...

    With reference to the rapture thread, maybe trying to define evangelicalism in terms of what is believed isn't especially useful (even if there often seems to be a particular emphasis on the detail of what is believed). I'm not convinced worship practices offer many insights, either.

    I think there are other ways to characterise church movements, such looking at whether there are patterns to the ways in which different groups have come to be formed, grow, and endure, evolve, merge or wither.

    In this context, I wonder whether the swing towards intolerance is a new development, or if cycles of intolerance are part of the modus operandi of evangelicalism?
  • Is someone going to mention Bebbington ?
  • One could do - but, as stated above, evangelicalism isn't just about particular emphases on what one believes.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    One could do - but, as stated above, evangelicalism isn't just about particular emphases on what one believes.
    Except the Bebbington Quadrilateral isn't just about belief. The fourth point, that Evangelicalism includes a strong sense of activism, a faith lived out in action to advance the Kingdom, in particular. But, many of the other points encompass more than mere belief. The centrality of the Bible is a belief, but it spills over into the way we view the world through that Biblical lens.

    Ironically, much of what many think of as Evangelicalism aren't included in the Quadrilateral at all. There's nothing within that description that would predict any particular style of worship is Evangelical - many of the classic hymns were written by Evangelicals, many Evangelicals find they worship more naturally without a praise band performing nothing written more than 5 years ago. There's nothing that would require the development of an entire sub-culture of music, novels, holiday camps etc.

    It's the Bebbington Quadrilateral that still allows me to hold onto the label "Evangelical" to describe my faith. Unless it's been revised in the last 30 years, I could probably still agree with the doctrinal basis of UCCF (for our non-Brit friends, the evangelical umbrella group for university and college Christian Unions). But, praise band worship does nothing for me. And, I'd agree with Augustine quoted above and reject interpretations of the Bible that don't align with the imperative to love all, or which are so ludicrous that they needlessly portray the Christian faith as nonsense (eg: YEC). I also reject the requirement that true Christians exhibit particular manifestations of the Spirit - which is a characteristic of Charismatics rather than Evangelicals, although there is a significant overlap there are Evangelicals who aren't Charismatic and Charismatics who aren't Evangelical.
  • pease wrote: »
    As another (British) one-time evangelical...

    With reference to the rapture thread, maybe trying to define evangelicalism in terms of what is believed isn't especially useful (even if there often seems to be a particular emphasis on the detail of what is believed). I'm not convinced worship practices offer many insights, either.

    I think there are other ways to characterise church movements, such looking at whether there are patterns to the ways in which different groups have come to be formed, grow, and endure, evolve, merge or wither.

    In this context, I wonder whether the swing towards intolerance is a new development, or if cycles of intolerance are part of the modus operandi of evangelicalism?

    I wouldn't say that was an exclusively evangelical thing.

    There's a particularly virulent fundamentalist thing going on within Orthodoxy at the moment.

    These things tend to surface during times of uncertainty and change.

    Some early evangelicals were very prominent in the Abolition movement, for instance. Others promoted slavery.

    At the moment I think some sections within evangelicalism feel under threat - as did the early Fundamentalists - and so are taking a hard line for that reason.

    @chrisstiles - I think Bebbington's Quadrilateral is a useful 'marker' but think things have moved on since he devised it.

    I also agree with @Pease and @Baptist Trainfan that it is no longer sufficient - if it ever was - simply to look at stated beliefs.

    All religious groups are more than the sum total of their particular belief system. We are dealing with people after all not creedal formularies, written or unwritten.

    The pace of change is quickening too.

    I remember reading a reflection by the late Dr Andrew Walker on his book about the UK restorationist scene, Restoring the Kingdom.

    He observed that no sooner had he completed one chapter then alliances and emphases changed so that it was immediately out of date.

    He couldn't write the book quickly enough to keep pace with shifts and changes.

    I would posit that this holds true to some extent across the evangelical scene as a whole. A constant shift in fads and trends.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    Another, seemingly baked-in, aspect of the MO of evangelical church movements is the idea that if you don't like the one you're in, you have the option of leaving and setting up a new one.
  • One could do - but, as stated above, evangelicalism isn't just about particular emphases on what one believes.

    Subject to the various caveats Alan mentions. In any case, at least at one point evangelicalism could be defined in some way by the quadrilateral, so it should be possible to define current day evangelicalism in terms of in relation to the same. Looking at the barest outlines:

    Conversionism, the belief that lives need to be changed;
    Activism, the expression of the gospel in effort;
    Biblicism, a particular regard for the Bible
    Crucicentrism, a stress on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

    [Deliberately presented in the order and manner they first appear in Bebbington's book - because the following sections go on to trace how they've played out in varied and different ways historically].

    These elements are all still present -- even if they function differently to how they once did, and there's a reasonable case that this if you start off with a movement defined via a series of tendencies rather than firm beliefs, add in a lack of intellectual heft (Noll) and a heavy dose of pragmatism (a la Fuller and major American evangelical figures in the post war era) the end state isn't all that surprising.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    pease wrote: »
    Another, seemingly baked-in, aspect of the MO of evangelical church movements is the idea that if you don't like the one you're in, you have the option of leaving and setting up a new one.

    In fairness, "I'll start my own [blank]. With blackjack. And hookers." is a pretty universal human impulse. The Reformation boosted it, and enlightenment ideas turbo-charged it. The mediaeval and early modern church diverted it into religious orders where possible and suppressed it as heretical where not.
  • The Orthodox never went in for religious orders.

    That isn't to say that we don't have our differences and divisions, generally over jurisdictional and power-play issues rather than doctrinal spats.

    The current egregious schism between Moscow and Constantinople is a case in point.

    Most Christian heresies started in the Christian East, though. The poor old Cathars in France were influenced by ideas from the eastern Mediterranean.

    Would there have been more flux and flexibility within the Eastern Churches had it not been for subjection under the Ottomans and Communists?

    Probably.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    * Pedant alert: Episcopalian is a noun. The adjective is Episcopal.
    @Nick Tamen if you are correct for where you are, I think this is a pond difference. @Gamma Gamaliel is in the UK. Here, in normal usage Episcopal would mean 'pertaining to a bishop'. Members of the Scottish church in communion with the Church of England, as distinct from the Church of Scotland which is Presbyterian, are usually referred to as Episcopalians or Piskies. If one needs an adjective for that which is not going to be confusing, it is Episcopalian not Episcopal. The same would apply here to anyone from another church that self-described as Episcopalian.

  • To go back to the quadrilateral.
    As I understand it, it is descriptive not prescriptive. It's also a way of analysing common threads over two and a half centuries of diverse theologies and behaviours.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    * Pedant alert: Episcopalian is a noun. The adjective is Episcopal.
    @Nick Tamen if you are correct for where you are, I think this is a pond difference. @Gamma Gamaliel is in the UK. Here, in normal usage Episcopal would mean 'pertaining to a bishop'. Members of the Scottish church in communion with the Church of England, as distinct from the Church of Scotland which is Presbyterian, are usually referred to as Episcopalians or Piskies. If one needs an adjective for that which is not going to be confusing, it is Episcopalian not Episcopal. The same would apply here to anyone from another church that self-described as Episcopalian.
    @Enoch, it may indeed be a Pond Difference (though this notice from the Scottish Episcopal Church, which refers to a “Resident Episcopal Priest on the Isle of Iona,” might suggest otherwise).

    As for whether I’m correct for where I am, this is from “An Episcopal Dictionary of the Church,” found at the website of The Episcopal Church:
    Episcopal
    1) Concerning the Episcopal Church. Used in this sense, the adjective “Episcopal” is always capitalized. For example, “The Episcopal liturgy will be used at the wedding.” Similarly, “The Episcopal priest attended the ecumenical gathering.” 2) Concerning a bishop or bishops. Used in this sense, the adjective “episcopal” is not always capitalized. For example, an episcopal ring is a ring worn by a bishop as a sign of the bishop's office. See Episcopalian.
    and
    Episcopalian
    A member of the Episcopal Church. The term is used as a noun, not as an adjective. The term can be applied to a member of any church under the leadership of bishops. See Episcopal.

    There is also this, found on The Episcopal Church’s Writing Style Guide:
    Episcopal is the adjective; use Episcopalian only as a noun referring to a member of The Episcopal Church: She is an Episcopalian, and she is also an Episcopal priest.

    I’ve heard American Episcopalians insist on the Episcopal/Episcopalian distinction many times. And as the clergy @Gamma Gamaliel was talking about were American Episcopalians, I think it’s a very safe bet they would not refer to themselves as “Episcopalian clergy.”
    Returning the definition of evangelical, and out of curiosity, I took a look at the website of the (US) National Association of Evangelicals to see how they define “Evangelical,” assuming they did at all. I found this, following reference to the Bebbington Quadrilateral, on the page “What Is an Evangelical”:
    Evangelicals are a common subject of research, but often the outcomes of that research vary due to differences in the methods used to identify evangelicals. In response to that challenge, the NAE and LifeWay Research developed a tool to provide a consistent standard for identification of evangelical belief.

    The NAE/LifeWay Research method includes four statements to which respondents must strongly agree to be categorized as evangelical:
    • The Bible is the highest authority for what I believe.
    • It is very important for me personally to encourage non-Christians to trust Jesus Christ as their Savior.
    • Jesus Christ’s death on the cross is the only sacrifice that could remove the penalty of my sin.
    • Only those who trust in Jesus Christ alone as their Savior receive God’s free gift of eternal salvation.
    Researchers are encouraged to use the method, with proper citation to NAE/LifeWay Research.
    FYI, LifeWay Research is the polling and survey division of LifeWay Christian Resources, the publication/media and business services entity of the Southern Baptist Convention.

    I also found this NAE Statement of Faith:
    We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.

    We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.

    We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.

    We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.

    We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.

    We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
    FWIW.


  • On a pedantic point you are probably right as a legal-eagle @Nick Tamen. I was using the term in a slapdash and shorthand way.

    I type quickly and tend not to edit my posts as much as I ought.

    Over here, both terms are used, although I'm not at all surprised to see 'Scottish Episcopal' rather than 'Scottish Episcopalian' used in the reference you cite. I wouldn't really expect it be otherwise.

    In mitigation, I s'pose that as the American group consisted of both clergy and laity, I was more inclined to use the term Episcopalian as a generic term for members of a particular church which 'denominates' itself that way.

    I will try to be more pedantic in future. 😉
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    When considering whether there's a modus operandi, it isn't necessarily the case that the individual components are exclusive (or unique), it's whether the MO as a whole is distinctive.

    In relation to the Bebbington Quadrilateral, "activism" looks to be rather a broad term - it covers a wide range of sins. For example, comparing it with the NAE/LifeWay statement, my long-time observation is that being evangelical doesn't always correlate with direct personal involvement in evangelism, although it does usually correlate with an attitude towards evangelism. (ie the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk.)

    I used to read rather more evangelical statements of faith than was entirely healthy. Given the context, I was often intrigued about what they said regarding the church. Considering the relevant statement from above: "We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ", I'm put in mind of John Nelson Darby (from the segment of his wikipedia entry on the Rapture thread):
    During this time (1827–28) he joined an interdenominational meeting of believers (including Anthony Norris Groves, Edward Cronin, J. G. Bellett, and Francis Hutchinson) who met to "break bread" together in Dublin as a symbol of their unity in Christ. By 1832, this group had grown and began to identify themselves as a distinct Christian assembly. As they travelled and began new assemblies in Ireland and England, they formed the movement now known as the Plymouth Brethren.
    There seems to be a distinctive idea of church being alluded to, although I've yet to work out how to articulate it.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited September 30
    "Gathered covenant community", perhaps? Certainly not a notion of church which is formed around a bishop in the line of Apostolic Succession, nor indeed one which needs ordained clergy.
  • pease wrote: »
    When considering whether there's a modus operandi, it isn't necessarily the case that the individual components are exclusive (or unique), it's whether the MO as a whole is distinctive.

    In relation to the Bebbington Quadrilateral, "activism" looks to be rather a broad term - it covers a wide range of sins.

    It occurred to me that this is true of all of the quadrilateral - at least in their summary formation, and the more specific definitions are historically contingent. That was the reason for extracting them in their earliest and least developed form.
  • @pease and @Baptist Trainfan, I think it's fair to say that evangelicalism in its various forms has a pretty 'loose' ecclesiology.

    That isn't to say that it doesn't have an ecclesiology, but it does differ of course from the 'higher' ecclesiology of the more sacramental historic Churches and indeed, those of the 'Magisterial Reformation' ... the Lutherans and classic Reformed Churches.

    Darby's ecumenical group gathering to 'break bread' was no doubt pretty ground-breaking in its day, but I can't imagine they'd have welcomed Catholics to the table any more than the RCs or Orthodox would have welcomed them either.

    In some ways, I'd suggest the UK restorationist movement tried to develop an ecclesiology in reaction to the individualistic 'me and Jesus' tendency to which evangelicalism can be prone.

    There are, of course, 'gathered covenant communities' on a Congregationalist model, and I'm not decrying that as an ecclesial form.

    What the restorationists did was ratchet that up a few degrees and effective develop a 'charismatic episcopacy' to which they gave fancy names - 'apostles and prophets'.

    You could be called Dave or Fred and be on first name terms with everyone and not wear a cope or a funny hat but you'd still have a flash car and better treatment at the Bible Weeks.

    In some ways the 'covenant relationships' espoused by the restorationists, with varying degrees of elasticity, mirrored the kind of 'covenant' commitments espoused by older religious orders, only applied to a 'gathered' church community rather than a monastic or neo-monastic setting.

    I'm 'seeing' a woman from an evangelical background and, surprise, surprise, her ecclesiology and approach is far more 'individualistic' than mine.

    She likes to do Bible studies, which is fine of course, but I notice that my approach and interpretation tends to be more 'corporate' than hers. What does this say to the people of God as a whole, rather than me as an individual, as it were.

    I wouldn't want to overstate that but I do think it's an issue.

    I'd also say that whilst I think a kind of 'evangelical ecumenism' is generally good and benign - within its own parameters - it can lead to greater levels of consumerist 'shopping around'. We've has a thread about that recently.

    The charismatic movement has often been described as 'a spirituality in search of a theology.'

    I'd suggest that much of evangelicalism is a spirituality/theology in search of an ecclesiology.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    @pease and @Baptist Trainfan, I think it's fair to say that evangelicalism in its various forms has a pretty 'loose' ecclesiology.

    That isn't to say that it doesn't have an ecclesiology…

    I think evangelicalism doesn’t have a single ecclesiology.

    IME evangelical Anglicans have a clear ecclesiology, evangelical Baptists have a clear but different ecclesiology, evangelical Methodists different again.

    I think all have in common the principle that scriptural warrant trumps ecclesiastical structure if the two are seen to be in conflict.
  • Yes, although I'd that the Brethren-type churches would say that they have the "proper" NT ecclesiology.
  • Yes, although I've heard Baptists make a similar claim.

    Of course, they're all wrong ... 😉

    I can't say I've noticed evangelical Anglicans having a particularly clear ecclesiology mainly because a lot of people in evangelical Anglican parishes tend to gravitate to the evangelical aspect rather than the Anglican aspect.

    That probably differs at ministerial level though and with what used to be known as 'Prayer Book evangelicals.'

    Baptists tend to have a pretty clear ecclesiology IME.

    At the risk of sounding patronising, many evangelicals strike me as not having very much of an ecclesiology at all.

    Baptists do because the way they organise themselves is predicated on a particular ecclesiology and so it's part of the warpath and woof of how they operate in a way that might be less immediately apparent in other groups.

    That's my impression anyway and I'm willing to be challenged on it.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited September 30
    Just warp, not warpath!

    I think individualism comes before ecclesiology for many evangelicals.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    My experience, many years old now, is that many evangelicals may attend a particular church with a defined ecclesiology but it's not the ecclesiology that draws them to that particular church - the draw would be a "Biblical theology", and in particular doctrines that they consider to be essential to such a theology, and also to the praxis of that church such as the worship band or outreach programmes. And, quite often if that church fails to deliver what they want they'll move to another church, and ecclesiology won't be part of their decision making process.
  • @Alan Cresswell precisely that.

    @Baptist Trainfan - precisely that also.

    And yes, predictive text got the better of me.

    Warp and woof.

    All that said, the flipside is that despite the tendency towards individualism and consumerism many evangelicals demonstrate remarkable levels of commitment and energy to whatever congregations they end up in that more liberal or sacramental Christians would envy.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I would also suggest that the reason many evangelicals go to a particular church or denomination is because that is where they were converted and at the time of their conversion they had, understandably, not previously thought about ecclesiology much. It is not all to do with individualism and consumerism.
  • I don't think anyone here is saying that it is all to do with individualism and consumerism.

    See my comment acknowledging the energy and commitment that many evangelicals bring to their congregations, and indeed to other causes and initiatives.

    What I would say is that by its very nature, though, evangelicalism is going to display a degree of individualism and consumerism in the way it works out on the ground.

    I'd also add that if individual evangelicals don't 'think about ecclesiology much' then that isn't their 'fault', nor is it a state of affairs restricted to evangelicalism.

    I've known Baptist churches which have run preaching and teaching sessions outlining their particular ecclesiology. The restorationist churches in the UK also emphasised their 'distinctives' in this respect.

    I'd posit, though, that across evangelicalism more broadly ecclesiology isn't seen as a priority issue.

    Heck, I've come across evangelical Anglicans who sit very loosely indeed by Anglican rubrics and polity and flaunt that proudly.

    Also, @TurquoiseTastic's comment appears to imply that most evangelicals have been converted into it from unchurched backgrounds. That certainly happens but there's also 'transfer growth' with people moving into evangelicalism from other Christian traditions or from nominal adherence.

    I can't cite figures but I suspect the transfer rate isn't what it was 20 or 30 years ago.

    Are all evangelicals motivated purely by individualism and consumerism?

    No of course not.

    Do these things feature in the evangelical landscape?

    Yes. Most certainly.

    But they aren't the only features.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    It's probably worth saying that IME the majority of non-evangelicals are also largely unconcerned about ecclesiology, I don't know many people (outwith places like the Ship filled with theology wonks) who would be able to outline the ecclesiology of their church and how it's different from other churches. I don't think people generally join their local Methodist church because they value the Connexion, or their local URC because they want a Congregational structure, or their local Episcopal church because they consider the authority of a Bishop to be true to Tradition.

    In other times and places that may not have been true, when Covenantors went to their death to defend their church from having a different ecclesiology imposed on them this was probably much more prominent. But, today in the UK ... well, most people in churches simply don't care, and thus don't learn what the ecclesiology of their church is.
  • Sure ... although it's probably also worth saying that some Covenanters didn't see it amiss to assassinate those who had a different ecclesiology to theirs ... the Bishop they murdered was probably a nasty piece of work but two wrongs ...

    Yes, yes, I know, 'those to whom evil is done / Do evil in return.'

    But I'm not sure I'd have wanted the Covenanters running the show in my town.

    Anyway - I think something we also need to bear in mind is that people don't just join or choose their religious affiliation. Plenty of regulars in whatever church we are talking about were brought up in them - although this may be less the case now than it would hsve been a few generations back.

    We Orthodox have plenty of 'cradle-Orthodox' who only roll up at Easter and other key festivals, and our rubrics allow for that, even though it does cause problems.

    So, no, I'm not saying that your average Anglican goes home and discusses the finer points of Episcopal polity over their Sunday dinner.

    Nor that the average Methodist is fixated with Connexional issues, or the URC with the convolutions (or convulsions?) of congregational polity - at least not until there's an 'issue'.

    Perhaps it's the case that evangelicals tend to come in for scrutiny on boards like this because us theology wonks find it strange that they should be so 'vocal' about some aspects of their faith - whether personal relationship with Christ, primacy of scripture, particular views on the end-times, spiritual gifts, modes of baptism etc etc - and less outspoken as it were on other issues such as ecclesial ones.

    The experience and doctrine is seen as more important than the particular way it's organised and expressed in 'structural' terms as it were.

    The converse can be the case elsewhere. In my own setting I often think - tell it not in Gath - that the emphasis we place on Episcopal polity is sometimes in inverse proportion to the actual input we get from these fellas. It varies across the board.

    Just thinking aloud. Thinking allowed.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    What I would say is that by its very nature, though, evangelicalism is going to display a degree of individualism and consumerism in the way it works out on the ground.
    And from the rapture thread, as it seems more relevant to this discussion:
    @pease, I am certainly open to a more nuanced evaluation on Darby et al but I think we have to set some of this against the background of an incipiently 'capitalist' and 'market-driven' approach within 19th century evangelicalism.

    I may be exaggerating to make a point. But there's a point to be made.
    Looking around the web, I'm currently finding a dissertation (thesis) called Evangelicalism and Capitalism: A Reparative Account and Diagnosis of Pathogeneses in the Relationship by Jason Paul Clark (an evangelical minister in the UK) quite helpful in examining the relationship between evangelicalism and capitalism. He appears to address many of the points made on this thread.

    Abstract begins:
    No sustained examination and diagnosis of problems inherent to the relationship of Evangelicalism with capitalism currently exists. Where assessments of the relationship have been undertaken, they are often built upon a lack of understanding of Evangelicalism, and an uncritical reliance both on Max Weber’s Protestant Work Ethic and on David Bebbington’s Quadrilateral of Evangelical priorities. This then gives rise to misunderstandings and faulty prescriptions for the future of Evangelicalism...
    Introduction begins:
    Has my church, and my Evangelical kin, become captive to a mode of ‘dispensing religious goods and services’ to consuming participants? It is my church community and concern for its members that gives rise to my research project here...
  • Sounds like an interesting research project.

    As I'm too busy to read it right now, what does he conclude?
  • pease wrote: »
    What I would say is that by its very nature, though, evangelicalism is going to display a degree of individualism and consumerism in the way it works out on the ground.
    And from the rapture thread, as it seems more relevant to this discussion:
    @pease, I am certainly open to a more nuanced evaluation on Darby et al but I think we have to set some of this against the background of an incipiently 'capitalist' and 'market-driven' approach within 19th century evangelicalism.

    I may be exaggerating to make a point. But there's a point to be made.
    Looking around the web, I'm currently finding a dissertation (thesis) called Evangelicalism and Capitalism: A Reparative Account and Diagnosis of Pathogeneses in the Relationship by Jason Paul Clark (an evangelical minister in the UK) quite helpful in examining the relationship between evangelicalism and capitalism.

    If we are looking for sources; it's been a while since I read it, but "Economy of Desire" from the Church and Postmodern Culture series may be relevant here, particular Bell's (Daniel M Bell) conception of the Church as an alternate economy of desire
  • True, although most people move
    Sounds like an interesting research project.

    As I'm too busy to read it right now, what does he conclude?

    I downloaded it ... 287 pages!!! Which I don't pretend to understand.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    If we are looking for sources; it's been a while since I read it, but "Economy of Desire" from the Church and Postmodern Culture series may be relevant here, particular Bell's (Daniel M Bell) conception of the Church as an alternate economy of desire
    I'm getting the impression that Clark addresses a fair amount of the literature. From the Abstract:
    Where Evangelicals initially used the disciplined ascetics of the market for identity and relationships, these market ascetics ultimately deformed and replaced Christian social imaginaries, with market imaginations around Providence. Chapter five constructs a theological reading of the ascetics of that account, using Neo-Augustinian sources, in particular Vincent Miller, Daniel Bell and William Cavanaugh.
    And there are three books of Bell's in the extensive bibliography:
    • Bell, Daniel. The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism. New York: Basic Books, 1996.
    • ________. The Economy of Desire: Christianity and Capitalism in a Postmodern World. The Church and Postmodern Culture. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2012.
    • ________. Liberation Theology after the End of History: The Refusal to Cease Suffering. Radical Orthodoxy. London: Routledge, 2001.
    • ________. “What Gift Is Given? A Response to Volf.” Modern Theology, 19 (2003): 271–280.
    ...I downloaded it ... 287 pages!!! Which I don't pretend to understand.
    It does seem to be quite comprehensive! I'm having to scratch my head about some of the terminology.
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