I am not particularly well-endowed, something I was sorry about in my youth but am grateful for now.
Same. Though I never understood why I was supposed to feel ashamed of small breasts - it's one of those things people make rude comments about when you're a teenager, and also there is lots of emphasis on big breasts being desirable, but it seems more about what men want! I'm definitely very grateful for being able to wear bralettes, and sometimes I don't wear any bra at all.
Lots of men who are attracted to women prefer small breasts. Men who are attracted to women vary just as much as other genders who are attracted to women - marketing assumptions about what men want doesn't actually resemble what men want, eg all the birthday cards for dads featuring golf or beer etc with nothing for dads who don't like stereotypical Card Dad Hobbies (which never seem to feature the hobbies of dads I know, eg pottery or Warhammer or making hot sauce).
That's an interesting way to interpret my post. I'm surprised because didn't occur to me that you'd think I believed every man who is attracted to women has the same taste in breasts. I don't know anyone who believes that - it would be an odd thing to believe, as the simplest contact with other people shows all humans are very different. I now wonder if I am somehow coming across utterly naive about the most simple things!
To clarify, yes, I know. To all you said. I am aware of all these things. I see it as not just marketing, but society and media in general, how people are socialised. It is of course sadly common for certain men to be very vocal about their reactions to breasts, and those vocal men tend to be the ones who are making comments of sexual attraction to big breasts, and comments of derision to small breasts. This is frequently seen in comments on photos on social media.
I see it as partly about men wanting to prove their masculinity, according to how they've been socialised, to avoid shame that they associate with certain attitudes. Maybe they've been ridiculed for doing/saying something that other guys saw as 'girly.' There are certain codes for being a tough alpha guy, and one is liking a woman with big breasts. Which is also why I don't see men being embarrassed at being in the women's underwear department as 'silly', as such. I understand it's very common to laugh at men for being silly because they're embarrassed about women's stuff, but I see see the embarrassment as part of a wider socialisation that can be harmful, can lead to incel groups, etc.
So when I said 'there is lots of emphasis on big breasts being desirable, but it seems more about what men want,' I was specifically talking about the societal idea that men like big breasts. But more importantly, my point was that women have been expected to want big breasts for the sake of men. Not for themselves, not because it's comfortable to have big breasts, but because of an idea that they will meet men's approval. Or avoid men's mockery. So many grew up with this implied aim for their bodies as the norm, as young teens, without at that time questioning. Nenya mentioned it, and I replied in solidarity, and my comment about it being about what men want was a way of acknowledging how screwed up these social norms were.
(I realise this is straying off topic, but I felt it important to clarify my point, as I realised that what you seemed to be responding to was very different from the point I was intending to make.)
Women go running in sports bras and small shorts all the time. You (general you) see people in basically underwear at the gym or on the beach all the time.
Yes, and many examples of beachwear (bikinis, speedos etc.) offer less coverage than many examples of underwear.
But it's a case of function and location, not one of coverage. A man on the beach in a pair of speedos is dressed for swimming. A man on the high street in a pair of boxers is embarrassingly undressed, even though more of his surface is covered far less tightly.
To first approximation, everyone wears underwear (and if someone doesn't, I don't really want to know). The particular modesty norms I have inherited have me happy to disrobe with men (in a communal changing room, for example), and unwilling to disrobe with women. Displaying underwear would be more or less equivalent to disrobing. And yes, I'll go to reasonable lengths to ensure that any visiting women aren't presented with a view of my (unworn, and decidedly functional) underwear.
For example, back in my student days, I'd often have clothes drying on the radiator in my room ('cause I'd run out of money for the dryer). If what was hanging up was underwear, and if a woman came around to ask questions about this week's work or whatever, I'd throw a towel over it. If I happened to call on a female friend, and she had some underwear lying around, I'd look in another direction.
The psychotherapeutic term for this, is having boundaries. We have different boundaries for different cohorts of people, as well as different individuals depending on the kind of relationship we have with them specifically.
Comments
That's an interesting way to interpret my post. I'm surprised because didn't occur to me that you'd think I believed every man who is attracted to women has the same taste in breasts. I don't know anyone who believes that - it would be an odd thing to believe, as the simplest contact with other people shows all humans are very different. I now wonder if I am somehow coming across utterly naive about the most simple things!
To clarify, yes, I know. To all you said. I am aware of all these things. I see it as not just marketing, but society and media in general, how people are socialised. It is of course sadly common for certain men to be very vocal about their reactions to breasts, and those vocal men tend to be the ones who are making comments of sexual attraction to big breasts, and comments of derision to small breasts. This is frequently seen in comments on photos on social media.
I see it as partly about men wanting to prove their masculinity, according to how they've been socialised, to avoid shame that they associate with certain attitudes. Maybe they've been ridiculed for doing/saying something that other guys saw as 'girly.' There are certain codes for being a tough alpha guy, and one is liking a woman with big breasts. Which is also why I don't see men being embarrassed at being in the women's underwear department as 'silly', as such. I understand it's very common to laugh at men for being silly because they're embarrassed about women's stuff, but I see see the embarrassment as part of a wider socialisation that can be harmful, can lead to incel groups, etc.
So when I said 'there is lots of emphasis on big breasts being desirable, but it seems more about what men want,' I was specifically talking about the societal idea that men like big breasts. But more importantly, my point was that women have been expected to want big breasts for the sake of men. Not for themselves, not because it's comfortable to have big breasts, but because of an idea that they will meet men's approval. Or avoid men's mockery. So many grew up with this implied aim for their bodies as the norm, as young teens, without at that time questioning. Nenya mentioned it, and I replied in solidarity, and my comment about it being about what men want was a way of acknowledging how screwed up these social norms were.
(I realise this is straying off topic, but I felt it important to clarify my point, as I realised that what you seemed to be responding to was very different from the point I was intending to make.)
Yes, and many examples of beachwear (bikinis, speedos etc.) offer less coverage than many examples of underwear.
But it's a case of function and location, not one of coverage. A man on the beach in a pair of speedos is dressed for swimming. A man on the high street in a pair of boxers is embarrassingly undressed, even though more of his surface is covered far less tightly.
To first approximation, everyone wears underwear (and if someone doesn't, I don't really want to know). The particular modesty norms I have inherited have me happy to disrobe with men (in a communal changing room, for example), and unwilling to disrobe with women. Displaying underwear would be more or less equivalent to disrobing. And yes, I'll go to reasonable lengths to ensure that any visiting women aren't presented with a view of my (unworn, and decidedly functional) underwear.
For example, back in my student days, I'd often have clothes drying on the radiator in my room ('cause I'd run out of money for the dryer). If what was hanging up was underwear, and if a woman came around to ask questions about this week's work or whatever, I'd throw a towel over it. If I happened to call on a female friend, and she had some underwear lying around, I'd look in another direction.