Me too, @Cathscats, me too. And @North East Quine, I would do the same, but as a non-Gaelic English speaker of Scottish descent I can’t really answer you question.
In Scottish Gaelic, each pronoun has an emphatic form, which doesn't exist in English. If someone has a Gaelic background, you might hear them mangle English to say something like "It was myself that was thinking that" as a way of creating an emphatic "I" in a language that doesn't have one.
I use expressions such as "I, myself, think that ..." "He, himself, said that...." "They, themselves went to..."
Do other Shipmates do this? Or is it, as I read recently, a Scottish usage amongst monoglot English speakers, as an ersatz emphatic pronoun? I assumed "I, myself" was standard English, but is it?
This question came to mind because the examples of bad English given by Enoch would, I think, be grammatically correct in Gaelic.
"I, myself" is pretty standard, I think. The other related constructions less so.
Living in an area where vernacular Gaelic is still (just about) surviving I've picked up some habits of speech that reflect Gaelic usage. One is saying "it is" rather than "yes"; another is saying, for example "I am wanting" rather than "I want". I don't tend to use the "I have..." constructions ("I have the fear" etc) as they don't come up as often.
I see that this morning the BBC news app has a headline “King’s invite to Canada sends a message to Trump”
I am wincing and internally screaming “Invitation. The noun is invitation!”
But I know that this is how language evolves.
I don’t particularly like invite to mean invitation, but it’s not a recent evolution. I’ll risk quoting myself to repeat what I posted above:
It’s a usage attested to in the mid-17th Century: “Bishop Cranmer . . . gives him an earnest invite to England.” The Alliance of Divine Offices, Hamon L'Estrange (1659). There’s also this from Frances (Fanny) Burney (1778): “Every body bowed, & accepted the invite but me . . . for I have no notion of snapping at invites from the Great.”
I haven't seen it recently, but for a while "epicentre" was being used when "centre" would have been correct. Presumably because the longer word sounded more impressive (and few people knew the meaning of "epicentre")
My current irritant is "reach out to". What's wrong with "contact"? Less syllables as well.
I feel I'm old enough to remember style manuals that deprecated contact for communicate or get in touch with.
To my ear, “contact” sounds impersonal, sometimes even almost clinical. I’m not a fan of “reach out to,” but I would rarely say I’m going to contact someone I’m know. I’ll call them, get in touch with them, or touch base with them, but not contact them.
If you think very literally, as I do, "contact" is a bit more aggressive than "reach out to." "Contact" is built on a metaphor about touching (con + tact, as in tactile?). "Reach out to," well, my mind's eye sees that reach stopping a few inches short.
I haven't seen it recently, but for a while "epicentre" was being used when "centre" would have been correct. Presumably because the longer word sounded more impressive (and few people knew the meaning of "epicentre")
Here in California most people know all too well what an "epicenter" is. To me using "epicenter" in a metaphorical sense means something different from "center." To say "this restaurant is at the epicenter of the neighborhood," just to mean it's in the physical middle, is poor usage, but something like "this restaurant was at the epicenter of the city's new craft cocktail movement" makes sense to me.
The constant mispronunciation of "deteriorate" as "deteri-ate", now unfortunately very commonplace on news programmes across all broadcasters.
But these two-vowel combinations in English are often elided. For example, miniature and Parliament. Do you pronounce the "ia" as two syllables? Not many people do now, although I remember people who did.
My current irritant is "reach out to". What's wrong with "contact"? Less syllables as well.
Fewer syllables
"My bad" - another one I hate!
The "rule" was invented by an 18th century grammarian based on his personal preference. It had no basis in historical usage. Actual usage shows that "less" is used of both countables and uncountables,while "fewer" is restricted to the former.
Can we discuss ‘lay’ - as in ‘I’m going for a lay down’? It is suddenly absolutely everywhere, like the word ‘lie’ has been deleted from people’s memories.
My phone auto corrects “lie down” to “lay down” in voice to text every dang time and it’s really frustrating.
The weirdness about "deteri(or)ate" losing a syllable is the loss of the r, at least for this rhotic American. "Deteri-ate" sounds like a completely different word to me--much as "co-ent" would sound different than "comment" without the m's.
"co-ent" would sound different than "comment" without the m's.
Which reminds me.
I am permanently in a state of irritation nowadays as the whole country seems to be li'ered with dropped 't's.
I had no problem with it when it was confined to those reared in London or the wider Thames estuary, but it now seems to be an affectation adopted in all parts of the country, regardless of local speech patterns.
Which reminds me.
I am permanently in a state of irritation nowadays as the whole country seems to be li'ered with dropped 't's.
I had no problem with it when it was confined to those reared in London or the wider Thames estuary, but it now seems to be an affectation adopted in all parts of the country, regardless of local speech patterns.
"co-ent" would sound different than "comment" without the m's.
Which reminds me.
I am permanently in a state of irritation nowadays as the whole country seems to be li'ered with dropped 't's.
I had no problem with it when it was confined to those reared in London or the wider Thames estuary, but it now seems to be an affectation adopted in all parts of the country, regardless of local speech patterns.
It was common in the west country when I was growing up ~30 years ago. The glottal stop is a class rather than a regional signifier, I think.
The "rule" was invented by an 18th century grammarian based on his personal preference. It had no basis in historical usage. Actual usage shows that "less" is used of both countables and uncountables,while "fewer" is restricted to the former.
I am a grammatical pedant and proud of it, but even I can't believe any sentence was ever made clearer by someone using 'fewer' rather than 'less'.
Does anyone ever wish the English language distinguished between "more" of something countable and "more" of a continuous quantity?
Oops! I managed to leave the verb out of the main sentence in my last post—and in a thread about word usage. Serves me right.
Anyway, the sentence should have read: “. . . I have been reminded again how very much the use of reverend as a noun (“I asked the reverend about it”) or as a title (“Have you met Reverend Smith?”) bugs me.”
It bugs me how many job titles have been turned into literal titles. So when talking about "The Minister of Finance, Mr John Smith", we then have him refered to as "Minister Smith" rather than "Mr Smith" or the "The Honorable Mr Smith". It seems to have started in the USA, and I wonder if it is because the USA eschewed all imperial titles (King, Prince, Lord, Earl, Duke, Honorable, Sir, Lady, Dame) and then, rather than just sticking to plain Mr and Mrs, decided to tart things up by having, for example, "President Obama" and "Secretary Clinton" rather than "The President, Mr Obama" or "The Secretary of State, Mrs Clinton". George Washington himself decided that the correct way to refer to the man is "Mr President" or "Madam President", but people just can't seem to help themselves in forcing the job title to be instead the title in front of the surname.
"co-ent" would sound different than "comment" without the m's.
Which reminds me.
I am permanently in a state of irritation nowadays as the whole country seems to be li'ered with dropped 't's.
I had no problem with it when it was confined to those reared in London or the wider Thames estuary, but it now seems to be an affectation adopted in all parts of the country, regardless of local speech patterns.
It was common in the west country when I was growing up ~30 years ago. The glottal stop is a class rather than a regional signifier, I think.
That sounds right. I assume it's not taught to those learning English, along with other colloquialisms. I'm curious about where you don't find it, in the UK. N. Ireland? Scotland?
I get irritated by some news presenters on our local TV channel who say
THE (East Midlands) rather than THEE, before the vowel ( as in We three kings….. a star shining in the East)
They end “ Have A (as in CAKE) lovely day.”
I expect a to be more like euh.
I wonder if the Y’all Version of the Bible ever uses “y’all’s” or “all y’all.”
Well, they do use “y’all’s.” I found this in Matthew 7: “If y’all then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to y’all’s children, how much more will y’all’s Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Therefore, whatever y’all want humans to do for y’all, y’all should do for them, for this is the law and the prophets.”
"co-ent" would sound different than "comment" without the m's.
Which reminds me.
I am permanently in a state of irritation nowadays as the whole country seems to be li'ered with dropped 't's.
I had no problem with it when it was confined to those reared in London or the wider Thames estuary, but it now seems to be an affectation adopted in all parts of the country, regardless of local speech patterns.
It was common in the west country when I was growing up ~30 years ago. The glottal stop is a class rather than a regional signifier, I think.
"co-ent" would sound different than "comment" without the m's.
Which reminds me.
I am permanently in a state of irritation nowadays as the whole country seems to be li'ered with dropped 't's.
I had no problem with it when it was confined to those reared in London or the wider Thames estuary, but it now seems to be an affectation adopted in all parts of the country, regardless of local speech patterns.
It was common in the west country when I was growing up ~30 years ago. The glottal stop is a class rather than a regional signifier, I think.
George Washington himself decided that the correct way to refer to the man is "Mr President" or "Madam President", but people just can't seem to help themselves in forcing the job title to be instead the title in front of the surname.
My understanding of US protocol is that the current president is referred to as "The President of the United States of America", and addressed as "Mr President" or (hopefully) "Madam President", whereas past presidents are referred to as "President Surname".
On the use of job titles, I think you have it right that it's an attempt to honor the role rather than the person occupying the role. When I was church warden in the period when we were between rectors, I got a number of communications addressing me as "Warden Cniht", which used to amuse me, because I'm not used to it, but I don't hate it. Do I actually need to know what title a church warden, a mayor, or whoever else uses? Mayor Smith is the mayor. Do I (should I) care whether Mayor Smith is Mr Smith, Ms Smith, Miss Smith, Mrs Smith, Dr Smith, Mx Smith, The Revd Smith, or whatever else?
George Washington himself decided that the correct way to refer to the man is "Mr President" or "Madam President", but people just can't seem to help themselves in forcing the job title to be instead the title in front of the surname.
My understanding of US protocol is that the current president is referred to as "The President of the United States of America", and addressed as "Mr President" or (hopefully) "Madam President", whereas past presidents are referred to as "President Surname".
My understanding is that the latter—referring to past presidents as “President Surname”— is common but isn’t actually what protocol dictates. Protocol would have a past president referred to as “Mr. Surname” or “Ms. Surname.”
Unless he or she has a previous title ("General" or the like) that is customarily okay to use even after you've retired from the role. In that case, "President X" was supposed to revert to "General X" or whatever the highest title was. If none, then Mr or Ms.
I'm not sure if this ever worked out for anybody except Grant.
Last year my manager circulated a “proforma” that we have to complete when asking for any changes to care packages. It looks exactly like a form to me, but I have learnt to pick my battles.
Last year my manager circulated a “proforma” that we have to complete when asking for any changes to care packages. It looks exactly like a form to me, but I have learnt to pick my battles.
So if I'm right about what proforma means, what Iyour manager actually said is that it's something that doesn't matter except for the sake of paperwork. It is possible that they really meant that, or if they didn't really mean it, they did really think it.
My pet hated expression is the overuse of 'BUNCH' to list group of objects. Some of the worst examples I have heard are: bunches of whales, bunches of politicians, bunches of ideas. I have visions of whales cavorting in the ocean with pretty pink ribbons tied around their heads. It seems that collective nouns have almost completely disappeared.
// Glottal stop tangent //
Many years ago, my son, then aged about 7, told my daughter, aged about 5, that she was a glottal stop. She, of course, had no idea what a glottal stop was, and took him at his word that she was one.
He then told her that Mummy doesn't like glottal stops.
She asked me if I liked glottal stops, and when I said that I didn't, burst into tears.
It was one of those endlessly exasperating parenting moments - one minute you are trying to make dinner, the next you are trying to console an inconsolable child, sobbing about glottal stops.
Like Macavity, the North East Loon was nowhere to be seen, but I knew that if he was in his bedroom, apparently engrossed with Lego, with a beatific expression on his face, he was behind it. I tracked him down and got him to confess.
(I had pulled a similar stunt on my younger brother at about the same age by telling him that "sibling" meant "personal slave" and getting him to confirm with Mum that he was my sibling, so I guess the apple didn't fall far from the tree.)
My pet hated expression is the overuse of 'BUNCH' to list group of objects. Some of the worst examples I have heard are: bunches of whales, bunches of politicians, bunches of ideas. I have visions of whales cavorting in the ocean with pretty pink ribbons tied around their heads. It seems that collective nouns have almost completely disappeared.
My pet hated expression is the overuse of 'BUNCH' to list group of objects. Some of the worst examples I have heard are: bunches of whales, bunches of politicians, bunches of ideas. I have visions of whales cavorting in the ocean with pretty pink ribbons tied around their heads. It seems that collective nouns have almost completely disappeared.
My pet hated expression is the overuse of 'BUNCH' to list group of objects. Some of the worst examples I have heard are: bunches of whales, bunches of politicians, bunches of ideas. I have visions of whales cavorting in the ocean with pretty pink ribbons tied around their heads. It seems that collective nouns have almost completely disappeared.
Oh yes.
Golly, that's a real bunch of gripes!
But without that usage, we can't refer to Reform as a Punch of Brats.
The first and last of those I can't imagine pronouncing any way other than the way you just spelt them out.
I'd pronounce them "Feb-roo-ary" and
"Wed-ens-day", although I remember a lady from Sutherland in the north of Scotland who actually pronounced it "Wed-nes-day", with the n and e in the right order.
Comments
"I, myself" is pretty standard, I think. The other related constructions less so.
Living in an area where vernacular Gaelic is still (just about) surviving I've picked up some habits of speech that reflect Gaelic usage. One is saying "it is" rather than "yes"; another is saying, for example "I am wanting" rather than "I want". I don't tend to use the "I have..." constructions ("I have the fear" etc) as they don't come up as often.
I know this is Scottish usage, maybe Irish too? Anywhere else?
Parts of the northeastern US, perhaps due to Irish immigration.
'Yous' or 'youse' crossed the Atlantic and is sometimes heard in southern Ontario.
It may have been here on the Ship that someone pointed out that while 'utilise' can be annoying, it avoids confusion with yous(e).
It is used in Australia by some Australians.
Fewer syllables
"My bad" - another one I hate!
Here in California most people know all too well what an "epicenter" is. To me using "epicenter" in a metaphorical sense means something different from "center." To say "this restaurant is at the epicenter of the neighborhood," just to mean it's in the physical middle, is poor usage, but something like "this restaurant was at the epicenter of the city's new craft cocktail movement" makes sense to me.
But these two-vowel combinations in English are often elided. For example, miniature and Parliament. Do you pronounce the "ia" as two syllables? Not many people do now, although I remember people who did.
The first and last of those I can't imagine pronouncing any way other than the way you just spelt them out.
The "rule" was invented by an 18th century grammarian based on his personal preference. It had no basis in historical usage. Actual usage shows that "less" is used of both countables and uncountables,while "fewer" is restricted to the former.
My phone auto corrects “lie down” to “lay down” in voice to text every dang time and it’s really frustrating.
I am permanently in a state of irritation nowadays as the whole country seems to be li'ered with dropped 't's.
I had no problem with it when it was confined to those reared in London or the wider Thames estuary, but it now seems to be an affectation adopted in all parts of the country, regardless of local speech patterns.
And in New Zealand by some Kiwis.
Personally, I prefer y'all, as used in the southeastern USA and in the y'all verison of the bible.
It was common in the west country when I was growing up ~30 years ago. The glottal stop is a class rather than a regional signifier, I think.
Does anyone ever wish the English language distinguished between "more" of something countable and "more" of a continuous quantity?
It bugs me how many job titles have been turned into literal titles. So when talking about "The Minister of Finance, Mr John Smith", we then have him refered to as "Minister Smith" rather than "Mr Smith" or the "The Honorable Mr Smith". It seems to have started in the USA, and I wonder if it is because the USA eschewed all imperial titles (King, Prince, Lord, Earl, Duke, Honorable, Sir, Lady, Dame) and then, rather than just sticking to plain Mr and Mrs, decided to tart things up by having, for example, "President Obama" and "Secretary Clinton" rather than "The President, Mr Obama" or "The Secretary of State, Mrs Clinton". George Washington himself decided that the correct way to refer to the man is "Mr President" or "Madam President", but people just can't seem to help themselves in forcing the job title to be instead the title in front of the surname.
That sounds right. I assume it's not taught to those learning English, along with other colloquialisms. I'm curious about where you don't find it, in the UK. N. Ireland? Scotland?
THE (East Midlands) rather than THEE, before the vowel ( as in We three kings….. a star shining in the East)
They end “ Have A (as in CAKE) lovely day.”
I expect a to be more like euh.
I wonder if the Y’all Version of the Bible ever uses “y’all’s” or “all y’all.”
Well, they do use “y’all’s.” I found this in Matthew 7: “If y’all then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to y’all’s children, how much more will y’all’s Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Therefore, whatever y’all want humans to do for y’all, y’all should do for them, for this is the law and the prophets.”
Do they call it the glo'al stop?
Yes.
My understanding of US protocol is that the current president is referred to as "The President of the United States of America", and addressed as "Mr President" or (hopefully) "Madam President", whereas past presidents are referred to as "President Surname".
On the use of job titles, I think you have it right that it's an attempt to honor the role rather than the person occupying the role. When I was church warden in the period when we were between rectors, I got a number of communications addressing me as "Warden Cniht", which used to amuse me, because I'm not used to it, but I don't hate it. Do I actually need to know what title a church warden, a mayor, or whoever else uses? Mayor Smith is the mayor. Do I (should I) care whether Mayor Smith is Mr Smith, Ms Smith, Miss Smith, Mrs Smith, Dr Smith, Mx Smith, The Revd Smith, or whatever else?
I'm not sure if this ever worked out for anybody except Grant.
Many years ago, my son, then aged about 7, told my daughter, aged about 5, that she was a glottal stop. She, of course, had no idea what a glottal stop was, and took him at his word that she was one.
He then told her that Mummy doesn't like glottal stops.
She asked me if I liked glottal stops, and when I said that I didn't, burst into tears.
It was one of those endlessly exasperating parenting moments - one minute you are trying to make dinner, the next you are trying to console an inconsolable child, sobbing about glottal stops.
Like Macavity, the North East Loon was nowhere to be seen, but I knew that if he was in his bedroom, apparently engrossed with Lego, with a beatific expression on his face, he was behind it. I tracked him down and got him to confess.
(I had pulled a similar stunt on my younger brother at about the same age by telling him that "sibling" meant "personal slave" and getting him to confirm with Mum that he was my sibling, so I guess the apple didn't fall far from the tree.)
Oh yes.
Golly, that's a real bunch of gripes!
But without that usage, we can't refer to Reform as a Punch of Brats.
I'd pronounce them "Feb-roo-ary" and
"Wed-ens-day", although I remember a lady from Sutherland in the north of Scotland who actually pronounced it "Wed-nes-day", with the n and e in the right order.