Coffee shops are Hell

245

Comments

  • It's rarely that a coffee shop stands out as being exceptional - we visit so many while travelling - but the van opposite the bus station is Kyle of Lochalsh is memorable as serving by far the worst coffee I have encountered in years. Weak, only a vague coffee flavour, and tepid. It has become difficult to find really bad coffee in Scotland these days, but the owners of that van have succeeded (three years ago - it may have improved).

    It used to be impossible to get good food in Scotland. I had a 'bridie' in Inverness once. It was vile. Like a lard pie.

    I thought bad food and drink was a venerable Scottish tradition ...

    But things change, and for the better. You can get a decent pint up there these days.
  • I have not read Moby Dick, and I have no interest in learning how to disassemble a whale.
  • Pity, that—Lego experience helps.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay more than £1 for a coffee and I would expect something posh like Nescafé Original.

    The Bad Jokes thread is in Heaven.

    It was not a joke and if you prefer Maxwell House, that's your choice

  • It's rarely that a coffee shop stands out as being exceptional - we visit so many while travelling - but the van opposite the bus station is Kyle of Lochalsh is memorable as serving by far the worst coffee I have encountered in years. Weak, only a vague coffee flavour, and tepid. It has become difficult to find really bad coffee in Scotland these days, but the owners of that van have succeeded (three years ago - it may have improved).

    It used to be impossible to get good food in Scotland. I had a 'bridie' in Inverness once. It was vile. Like a lard pie.

    I thought bad food and drink was a venerable Scottish tradition ...

    But things change, and for the better. You can get a decent pint up there these days.

    You could always get a decent pint in Scotland, though sometimes you had to search for it. The Scottish heavy is a historic traditional beer that is said to go back to the monks of Iona, ensuring the survival of Christianity there. We've discussed the beloved Aberdeen buttery - or rowie - here before; another near religious experience that probably perpetuates the prehistory of the croissant. Even without the lard, it can bring contentment to a troubled soul.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay more than £1 for a coffee and I would expect something posh like Nescafé Original.

    The Bad Jokes thread is in Heaven.

    It was not a joke and if you prefer Maxwell House, that's your choice

    Reminds me of the time Mrs Spike and I went for a short break in Venice, which is renowned for serving some of the finest coffee in Europe. There was another English couple staying in the same hotel who had taken their own jar of Nescafé to have at breakfast as they didn’t like the local stuff.

    Made me embarrassed to be British
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I've heard of people bringing sliced white bread to France. Quelle horreur as they say over there.

    I remember from childhood when coffee was a milky drink, on a par with drinking chocolate, made with Birds Eye. And of ordering a coffee in small seaside town about 30 years ago and it still was. I see btw, you can still get Birds Eye instance, with the strap line 'deliciously mild' which I take to mean 'hardly tastes of coffee'.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    Spike wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay more than £1 for a coffee and I would expect something posh like Nescafé Original.

    The Bad Jokes thread is in Heaven.

    It was not a joke and if you prefer Maxwell House, that's your choice

    Reminds me of the time Mrs Spike and I went for a short break in Venice, which is renowned for serving some of the finest coffee in Europe. There was another English couple staying in the same hotel who had taken their own jar of Nescafé to have at breakfast as they didn’t like the local stuff.

    Made me embarrassed to be British

    My suspicion is that a lot of Brits don't actually like coffee. The existence and continuing popularity of instant coffee reinforces that suspicion.

    I have to constant remind myself to specify black as asking for "a coffee" tends to result in a white one. Even if you order an Americano you get asked if you want milk...
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Well, tasting like coffee hardly seems a consideration for a lot of the stuff served on modern coffee shops. When you take a coffee (good, bad or indifferent) and pump it full of syrup and milk the epithet "hardly tastes of coffee" fits.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay more than £1 for a coffee and I would expect something posh like Nescafé Original.

    The Bad Jokes thread is in Heaven.

    It was not a joke and if you prefer Maxwell House, that's your choice

    Reminds me of the time Mrs Spike and I went for a short break in Venice, which is renowned for serving some of the finest coffee in Europe. There was another English couple staying in the same hotel who had taken their own jar of Nescafé to have at breakfast as they didn’t like the local stuff.

    Made me embarrassed to be British

    My suspicion is that a lot of Brits don't actually like coffee. The existence and continuing popularity of instant coffee reinforces that suspicion.

    As the popularity of sweeteners + milk. Most sour tastes are acquired (think wine) so it's not surprising that people don't actually like coffee on its own, but on the other hand coffee shops have populated high streets and are one of the few (relatively) low price third spaces.
  • DardaDarda Shipmate
    Reminded of a friend who asked for a "latte" in Italy and ended up with a glass of milk.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay more than £1 for a coffee and I would expect something posh like Nescafé Original.

    The Bad Jokes thread is in Heaven.

    It was not a joke and if you prefer Maxwell House, that's your choice

    Reminds me of the time Mrs Spike and I went for a short break in Venice, which is renowned for serving some of the finest coffee in Europe. There was another English couple staying in the same hotel who had taken their own jar of Nescafé to have at breakfast as they didn’t like the local stuff.

    Made me embarrassed to be British

    My suspicion is that a lot of Brits don't actually like coffee. The existence and continuing popularity of instant coffee reinforces that suspicion.

    I have to constant remind myself to specify black as asking for "a coffee" tends to result in a white one. Even if you order an Americano you get asked if you want milk...

    I actually don't like the coffee that is sold in the chains. Too strong, over roasted and bitter. And nothing would persuade me to put some of the over-processed chemical concoctions involving syrups etc into my body. I am perfectly happy with instant at home or filtered when available when I am out and about. Otherwise I would chose tea which I never drink at home.
    I guess I am so old that the attractiveness of coffee culture has gone right over my head. I just don't get it. Formica tables and mugs belong in "greasy spoons" and supermarket caffs as far as I am concerned, not in places that charge three or four pounds for a hot drink.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Instant coffee is very popular in the UK because we drink a lot of tea (I don’t like tea) and we have kettles.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    But coffee can be made quickly and easily (and in our house often us) by using a cafetiere.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    But coffee can be made quickly and easily (and in our house often us) by using a cafetiere.

    It is a bit of a faff to clean up, however.
  • But coffee can be made quickly and easily (and in our house often us) by using a cafetiere.

    It is a bit of a faff to clean up, however.

    True, but it does at least taste like coffee.

    I've never figured out what instant coffee tastes like.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    Alan29 wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay more than £1 for a coffee and I would expect something posh like Nescafé Original.

    The Bad Jokes thread is in Heaven.

    It was not a joke and if you prefer Maxwell House, that's your choice

    Reminds me of the time Mrs Spike and I went for a short break in Venice, which is renowned for serving some of the finest coffee in Europe. There was another English couple staying in the same hotel who had taken their own jar of Nescafé to have at breakfast as they didn’t like the local stuff.

    Made me embarrassed to be British

    My suspicion is that a lot of Brits don't actually like coffee. The existence and continuing popularity of instant coffee reinforces that suspicion.

    I have to constant remind myself to specify black as asking for "a coffee" tends to result in a white one. Even if you order an Americano you get asked if you want milk...

    I actually don't like the coffee that is sold in the chains. Too strong, over roasted and bitter. And nothing would persuade me to put some of the over-processed chemical concoctions involving syrups etc into my body. I am perfectly happy with instant at home or filtered when available when I am out and about. Otherwise I would chose tea which I never drink at home.
    I guess I am so old that the attractiveness of coffee culture has gone right over my head. I just don't get it. Formica tables and mugs belong in "greasy spoons" and supermarket caffs as far as I am concerned, not in places that charge three or four pounds for a hot drink.

    Too strong?!?

    I've too frequently had chain coffee that was far too thin.

    Coffee is bitter. That's part of its flavour profile. If it weren't it wouldn't taste of coffee.
  • Yes.

    I enjoy both tea and coffee. I have a cafetiere because I got fed up of buying a new filter-coffee machine whenever the old one bust.

    I also have several of those wonderful Bialetti things that are like Italian Futurist bunsen burners that you put on the hob.

    I love those and have different shapes and sizes and a spare in case I forget to take them off the hob and end up melting the handle. I've done that a few times.

    There is never, ever, ever, ever, ever any excuse for instant coffee.

    Same as there is no excuse for keg beer rather than cask ale.

    I very rarely go into one of those dreadful chain coffee outlets and if I do I made sure I don't have it chock-full of milk, syrup, chemicals and shit.

    My mother always had a 'milky coffee' mid-morning which she made by heating milk in a saucepan. She would never have coped with it any other way. My twin brother refuses to drink coffee because he thinks it's pretentious and middle class, like wine.

    But then he's a pretentious inverted snob.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    KarlLB wrote: »
    But coffee can be made quickly and easily (and in our house often us) by using a cafetiere.

    It is a bit of a faff to clean up, however.

    True, but it does at least taste like coffee.

    I've never figured out what instant coffee tastes like.

    Proper coffee !!! However, this time of year I use Baileys instead of milk.
  • Spike wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay more than £1 for a coffee and I would expect something posh like Nescafé Original.

    The Bad Jokes thread is in Heaven.

    It was not a joke and if you prefer Maxwell House, that's your choice

    Reminds me of the time Mrs Spike and I went for a short break in Venice, which is renowned for serving some of the finest coffee in Europe. There was another English couple staying in the same hotel who had taken their own jar of Nescafé to have at breakfast as they didn’t like the local stuff.

    Made me embarrassed to be British

    Being ashamed to be British is very popular with some people. If I was obliged to go to France, should I have to eat the legs of frogs ?
  • Telford wrote: »
    Being ashamed to be British is very popular with some people. If I was obliged to go to France, should I have to eat the legs of frogs ?

    It's not compulsory, even for the French.

    I don't exactly object to frog's legs - I just find them a bit pointless. I mean, sure, if that's your only source of protein, then it's fine, but in a world that contains pigs, cows, chickens, and similar-shaped edibles, I don't really see why I'd want to faff with something as fiddly as a frog's leg.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Being ashamed to be British is very popular with some people. If I was obliged to go to France, should I have to eat the legs of frogs ?

    It's not compulsory, even for the French.

    I don't exactly object to frog's legs - I just find them a bit pointless. I mean, sure, if that's your only source of protein, then it's fine, but in a world that contains pigs, cows, chickens, and similar-shaped edibles, I don't really see why I'd want to faff with something as fiddly as a frog's leg.
    It's like ordering a KFC and having hot wings instead of chicken fillet strips.


  • But coffee can be made quickly and easily (and in our house often us) by using a cafetiere.

    It is a bit of a faff to clean up, however.
    I use a pour-over. Clean up is very easy.


  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I wouldn't pay more than £1 for a coffee and I would expect something posh like Nescafé Original.

    The Bad Jokes thread is in Heaven.

    It was not a joke and if you prefer Maxwell House, that's your choice

    Reminds me of the time Mrs Spike and I went for a short break in Venice, which is renowned for serving some of the finest coffee in Europe. There was another English couple staying in the same hotel who had taken their own jar of Nescafé to have at breakfast as they didn’t like the local stuff.

    Made me embarrassed to be British

    My suspicion is that a lot of Brits don't actually like coffee. The existence and continuing popularity of instant coffee reinforces that suspicion.

    I have to constant remind myself to specify black as asking for "a coffee" tends to result in a white one. Even if you order an Americano you get asked if you want milk...

    I actually don't like the coffee that is sold in the chains. Too strong, over roasted and bitter. And nothing would persuade me to put some of the over-processed chemical concoctions involving syrups etc into my body. I am perfectly happy with instant at home or filtered when available when I am out and about. Otherwise I would chose tea which I never drink at home.
    I guess I am so old that the attractiveness of coffee culture has gone right over my head. I just don't get it. Formica tables and mugs belong in "greasy spoons" and supermarket caffs as far as I am concerned, not in places that charge three or four pounds for a hot drink.

    Too strong?!?

    I've too frequently had chain coffee that was far too thin.

    Coffee is bitter. That's part of its flavour profile. If it weren't it wouldn't taste of coffee.

    Absolutely.
  • There is never, ever, ever, ever, ever any excuse for instant coffee.
    It is, I have to say, convenient at church. But we never have it at home.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    But coffee can be made quickly and easily (and in our house often us) by using a cafetiere.

    It is a bit of a faff to clean up, however.
    I use a pour-over. Clean up is very easy.


    What is a pour-over?
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Pour-over is when you put a small filter in a holder over a mug/cup and pour hot water into it. In Japan it was my default coffee maker, with single use packages that just got folded back into their individual container and thrown away. I've never seen those sold in the UK.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    I had them in cafes, but never used them at home.

    I don't see what's so hard in washing out a cafetiere (coffee from which I have just consumed).
  • There is never, ever, ever, ever, ever any excuse for instant coffee.
    It is, I have to say, convenient at church. But we never have it at home.

    Just having hot water would be convenient. It's no excuse.

    Mind, friend of mine's mother used to do "coffee" for her WI. It consisted of a flask of half and half hot water and hot milk with a couple of spoonfuls of Mellow TuBirds in it. Local garden centre coffee shop does (or used to do) a "milky coffee" which is something like 25% filter coffee and 75% hot milk.

    These are the data points from which I conclude Brits don't really like coffee. That and the coffee machine at work. Whoever adjusted the strength labours under the misapprehension that black coffee should look brown. It shouldn’t, not unless you're shining a very bright light through it.
  • All these discussions of milky coffee bring back happy memories of 1986 and being a 17 year old care assistant in a residential care home. At the dot of 11am I had a tray of milky coffee ready; instant coffee made with hot milk.
    Rombouts do some single use pre-filled filters, I’ve bought some when staying in a hotel. For camping we take a plastic dripper cone and paper liners and let it drip over an enamel jug, but I’ve recently bought some individual collapsible cones and papers to take to hotels.
    (I’m currently drinking my morning cafe latte, made from freshly ground Italian roast beans in an espresso machine).
  • Ah yes, it's the Rombouts ones I've seen. They're not bad, but still on the weak side (and, unless they've changed their design, involve single-use plastic).
  • All these discussions of milky coffee bring back happy memories of 1986 and being a 17 year old care assistant in a residential care home. At the dot of 11am I had a tray of milky coffee ready; instant coffee made with hot milk.
    Yuck - but, yes, the association of "milky coffee" and "old folk" is strong in my mind.

    Proper milky coffee should be like a Portuguese "galao".

  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    Ah yes, it's the Rombouts ones I've seen. They're not bad, but still on the weak side (and, unless they've changed their design, involve single-use plastic).
    Compostable ones these days but, yes, weak coffee. This is why I have bought single re-usable cone filters.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    From my limited experience US instant coffee is not as good as British instant coffee. Because there is more competition the quality is better.
    Some brands do coffee bags. Like a large tea bag with ground coffee in. I like my coffee milky, sacrilege some on here. That said I do have a basic understanding of coffee and will do tastings black. I was trained on modern coffee shop drinks by the best coffee maker in the company I work for. I spend all my work time in the kitchen cheffing, so don’t get much chance to use it these days.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Pour-over is when you put a small filter in a holder over a mug/cup and pour hot water into it. In Japan it was my default coffee maker, with single use packages that just got folded back into their individual container and thrown away. I've never seen those sold in the UK.

    What's in the single use package?

    Pour over in the US involves an endlessly reused cone-shaped dripper with a single-use paper filter, coffee (preferably just ground), water off the boil, and if you're at a pretentious coffee shop or just very particular, a small scale so the ratio of grounds to water is precise.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I follow James Hoffman for all my coffee nerdery needs.
  • Pour-over is when you put a small filter in a holder over a mug/cup and pour hot water into it. In Japan it was my default coffee maker, with single use packages that just got folded back into their individual container and thrown away. I've never seen those sold in the UK.
    In my case, the dripper is placed over a small (600 ml) pot, so I can a few cups at a time. And it is as @Ruth describes—dripper with a single-use paper filter, just-ground coffee, water in a goose-neck kettle off the boil. My son is one who uses (or used, maybe he doesn’t anymore) a scale and a timer—x grams of water and let drip for 30 seconds before adding x more grams kind of thing. I used a scale at first, until I had a good sense of the ratios and the timing that would yield what I wanted.


  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited December 2024
    Sorry for the double post, but for those unfamiliar with pour-overs, this (a Hario v60) is what I use.


  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Nick Tamen wrote: »

    I never go to Starbucks; I always favor the local coffee shops. And every one that I know of encourages to customers to linger.


    One of our locally-owned coffee shops used to have a sign forbidding the use of laptops during the lunch-hour. While I realize the purpose was to keep tables turning over and discourage single customers from holding down tables during the busy lunch rush, it felt like a targeted attack on writers -- who, along with students, are probably the most egregious offenders in the "hold down a table for hours for the cost of a coffee and a croissant" department.

    I love writing in coffee shops; problematic as it is, there was a Starbucks I used to go to all the time, as it was located in a bookstore. Since that branch has closed, my go-to writing spot has been the most out-of-the-way, least busy of the popular local coffee shops. The staff there is not nearly as good as at Starbucks (they are, for example, completely thrown off by the prospect of someone bringing in their own reusable cup, and have offered to make my drink in their disposable cup and pour it into my reusable cup, and don't seem to see how this defeats the purpose) but it is a nice spot to write in.

  • My son is a writer who likes to write in a particular coffee shop. They have similar set-up of no WiFi available from 11:30–1:00. I should have remembered that when I said all the local coffee shops around here encourage lingering, so I’ll modify to say the coffee shops I know of that mainly serve coffee and perhaps a few baked goods, as opposed to actual meals, encourage lingering.


  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Yes that's a fair distinction - the one I'm thinking of has a fairly full and nice lunch menu with soups, sandwiches, etc.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    Pour-over is when you put a small filter in a holder over a mug/cup and pour hot water into it. In Japan it was my default coffee maker, with single use packages that just got folded back into their individual container and thrown away. I've never seen those sold in the UK.

    What's in the single use package?

    Pour over in the US involves an endlessly reused cone-shaped dripper with a single-use paper filter, coffee (preferably just ground), water off the boil, and if you're at a pretentious coffee shop or just very particular, a small scale so the ratio of grounds to water is precise.
    It's a small filter bag with a rip off top, with a carboard frame that opens to hold it to a mug. In my experience always sold in individual sealed sachets, similar to coffee bags, with the sachet being a convenient receptacle for the wet filter when finished with.

    As a picture is worth a thousand words, I did a wee search and found they are available from at least one supplier in the UK Ueshima pour over coffee bag. In Japan, every grocery chain and convenience store would have their own brand equivalent, with a range of strengths (almost as big a range as ground coffee or beans).
  • Trudy wrote: »
    Yes that's a fair distinction - the one I'm thinking of has a fairly full and nice lunch menu with soups, sandwiches, etc.
    Yes, perhaps it’s idiosyncratic of me to think that if it has a full menu, it’s not a coffee shop.


  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    edited December 2024
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I've never figured out what instant coffee tastes like.
    It depends. Cafedirect instant tastes like instant, which is a perfectly good drink as long as you're not expecting coffee.
    Nescafé instant however tastes like the desiccated droppings of Satan's pet polecat.

  • I'm afraid I can't comment on taste as the brand I buy gets added to washing soda and citric acid and used to develop photographic film.

    Most of the time I'd rather smell coffee than drink it as it smells great, but often tastes either burnt or bitter (and I usually like bitter things).
  • Hugal wrote: »
    From my limited experience US instant coffee is not as good as British instant coffee. Because there is more competition the quality is better.

    In the US workplace, filter coffee machines are almost ubiquitous, and electric kettles are nonexistent. The niche for instant coffee is a rather small one.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I haven't had a cup of instant coffee since the 80s, before I drank coffee regularly. I and a couple of roommates had just moved into a new apartment a week before I and one of the other two both had an enormous paper due at school - she bought a jar of instant coffee to get us through that first week.
  • Instant coffee is what us poor people drink. We can't afford to go in poncy coffee shops.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    edited December 2024
    I don't see what's so hard in washing out a cafetiere (coffee from which I have just consumed).
    I think they're a fiddle, making sure all the liquid has drained off the coffee, getting as much of the grains off the plunger as you can, and spooning the grains into the food recycling. Then taking the plunger bit apart and washing it all, and once the round mesh bit starts to wear it catches on the washing up sponge and pulls bits of it off.

    We do have one, and enjoy the coffee from it, but I have to brace myself for the clear-up afterwards.

    ETA - my mum used to make milky coffee: instant, and made with hot milk warmed in a pan. I'd forgotten until I read this thread. For years I thought that was the way everyone drank it.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Telford wrote: »
    Instant coffee is what us poor people drink. We can't afford to go in poncy coffee shops.

    Half this thread is people talking about ways to make better coffee than instant at home, and how rubbish a lot of coffee shop coffee is. But you didn't bother reading that, you just decided to jump in with a shoulder chipuccino with homophobic froth on top. If you like instant, great, enjoy! Nobody's stopping you. But decent instant isn't notably cheaper than decent ground coffee, so pleading poverty won't wash, and the inverted snobbery is more than a little pathetic.
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