Caribbean is interesting because of different stress positions, I know 'Caribbean and Ca'ribbean, but Cari'bbean is possible. Must ask somebody Irish, as they have different stresses from English English.
Primary emphasis on the 'bee' and secondary emphasis on the 'ca' is the traditional RP way of saying Caribbean. If you log into the OED online, it's the first pronunciation there, and you can click to hear it.
Edit: Or here, the Cambridge Dictionary, which you don't have to log into.
Primary emphasis on the 'bee' and secondary emphasis on the 'ca' is the traditional RP way of saying Caribbean. If you log into the OED online, it's the first pronunciation there, and you can click to hear it.
Edit: Or here, the Cambridge Dictionary, which you don't have to log into.
We have in Saskatchewan (which if you're asked to say, we know immediately of you're luck) a small town called named Mozart, which post office remains open because people send self addressed envelopes to get the post office stamp on them. It's said mose-ert (rhymes with dessert).
You could see everyone in the congregation enjoy his reading, starting with "From the book of Isaiah..." which he pronounced I-sigh-ah, as opposed to our mixed southern I-zay-a.
When I was at uni, years ago, I went to a church with an American pastor who pronounced certain names and places in the Bible quite differently from what we English people were used to. And again I noticed the same differences when I was in Canada.
Pronunciation of Isaiah was one example - he said I-zay-a, like you do, Judy, while we say I-zy-a. Another was Philemon, which he said as FILL-a-mon, while we say fye-LEE-mun. And also Joseph - in southern England, at least, people generally say it with a 'z' in the middle, while he used an 's.'
Thinking of places, he pronounced Nineveh with an 'ay' sound at the end, while in the UK I've only heard it with an 'uh' sound (schwa) at the end.
There were quite a few more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.
FWIW, this American (American South) says, and usually hears, fi-LEE-mən and NIH-nə-və.
I just realized that the HTML codes for phonetic symbols haven't changed since I were a lad, hence, ə, and other delicacies. It's the future!
I actually had no idea there were HTML codes for phonetic symbols - this is handy. Easier than copying and pasting each symbol from its Wikipedia page, which is what I have done in the past. Though I also tend to use regular alphabet letters here as an approximation for pronunciation, as I'm not sure to what extent people are familiar with IPA, and I don't want to be exclusionary. But I guess everyone knows the schwa. Here is a web page I just found of HTML codes for phonetic symbols. Is it just me or does the schwa symbol, ə, look quite a bit smaller than the English text?
I am wondering what different English speakers call their parents, and grandparents? My parents were Mommy and Daddy. Grandparents were Grandmother last name, ( I had two) and Granddaddy. (I had only one.) I continued to use these names even as an adult. It was a Southern thing I am guessing that I did not shorten to Mom and Dad.
My parents were Mommy and Daddy when I was young, Mom and Dad when I was older. My paternal grandmother was Grandma. My maternal grandmother was Swedish, and we called her Mormor (literally "mother's mother"). Both of my grandfathers had died before I was born.
I (also American Southern) called my parents Momma and Daddy (pronounced more like “deddy”), until as a young adult I learned my momma actually preferred to be called Mother (which she called her own mother). So I made the switch.
Wife and I were Mommy and Daddy when the kids were little, but became Mom and Dad as they grew older.
My grandparents were Gran’Mary and Gran’daddy, and Gran and Daddy Mac. My parents were Gran and Gran’daddy to their grandkids. My mother-in-law is Mimi to her grandkids, and her mother (the only one of my wife’s grandparents that I knew) was Grammy.
Ok, here in England I called my parents Mummy and Daddy which became Mum and Dad once I was in my teens. My paternal grandparents were Grandma and Grandad , and maternal grandparents were Nana and Grandad. The two Grandads were distinguished by using their surnames in cases of ambiguity when referring to them in conversation.
My parents were addressed as Mummy and Daddy - still are - Mum and Dad were deprecated. Paternal grandparents were Gran and Papa. Maternal grandmother died before I was born, but would probably have been Grandma. Maternal grandfather was Grandad.
What about the h in where and white? Is it very old-fashioned to pronounce it?
Not in Scotland.
Exactly what I was about to say!
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
That would actually be consistent with the original spelling. All of our "wh" question words were once "hw", many centuries ago.
I was quite startled when I found this out. But when I learned Danish I noticed that all their question words start with "hv". It turns out the Danes have preserved the original idea and English has shifted.
I am wondering what different English speakers call their parents, and grandparents? My parents were Mommy and Daddy. Grandparents were Grandmother last name, ( I had two) and Granddaddy. (I had only one.) I continued to use these names even as an adult. It was a Southern thing I am guessing that I did not shorten to Mom and Dad.
Grandad... I genuinely am unsure about how many 'd's I want to spell that with and now I feel like going to a newsagent to find a card just to check (neither of mine have been living for some time).
And one Grandma and, most crucially, on the other side it's Nana. And Lord help you if you spell it "Nanna" which the majority of cards seem to. I've no idea how the 'Nana' terminology started but in my mother's line that's quite definitely the term.
We have in Saskatchewan (which if you're asked to say, we know immediately of you're luck) a small town called named Mozart, which post office remains open because people send self addressed envelopes to get the post office stamp on them. It's said mose-ert (rhymes with dessert).
You pronounce dessert "dose-ert"?
Hadn't really thought of it but it's somewhere between des with short e and dose.
It reminds me of pillow, which is pellow sort of for many here.
The names Ian/Iain and Ann are distinct here, but were not distinct in mid-west USA when we visited. And Ann was said in almost 2 syllables. So was dog: daw-awg. It's a very short awe sound here. Diaper is dye-per here. They said dye-a-per. Which if shopping we buy, we don't tend to purchase. Though a purchase will also refer to getting a good hold with your hand on something: "I had a good purchase on it, but it let go anyway." not "anyhow".
Garage. Which is a guh-RAJ. The j sounds like as in Jim or gym.
I am wondering what different English speakers call their parents, and grandparents? My parents were Mommy and Daddy. Grandparents were Grandmother last name, ( I had two) and Granddaddy. (I had only one.) I continued to use these names even as an adult. It was a Southern thing I am guessing that I did not shorten to Mom and Dad.
My parents were rather old-fashioned and our upbringing fairly formal. Our parents were Mama and Papa, occasionally Daddy for our father. Our paternal grandmother was Grandma, maternal grandparents were Grandmama and Grandpapa. Two great-grandmothers were Granny for one and Grand-gran for the other.
Things loosened up a bit when we were adults and our father became Daddy all the time, but Mama remained just that to her death.
The names Ian/Iain and Ann are distinct here, but were not distinct in mid-west USA when we visited. And Ann was said in almost 2 syllables.
Here respectively EE-yun, EYE-yun, and Æn
So was dog: daw-awg. It's a very short awe sound here.
Very short here also. One syllable.
Diaper is dye-per here.
Similar.
Though a purchase will also refer to getting a good hold with your hand on something: "I had a good purchase on it, but it let go anyway." not "anyhow".
Purchase meaning grip is all but dead here. I've heard anyhow, anyway, and anyways.
Garage. Which is a guh-RAJ. The j sounds like as in Jim or gym.
I am wondering what different English speakers call their parents, and grandparents? My parents were Mommy and Daddy. Grandparents were Grandmother last name, ( I had two) and Granddaddy. (I had only one.) I continued to use these names even as an adult. It was a Southern thing I am guessing that I did not shorten to Mom and Dad.
Mom and Dad
Maternal: Grandma and Gramps
Paternal: Grandma Lastname
Birth father's parents: Grandma and Grandpa Lastname.
Mum and Dad.
Grandma and Grandpa
Nanny and Nappa (my brother's attempt at Grandpa)
Husband and I are known as Nan & Pa
Omah & Opah (daughter's Dutch in laws)
Nancy (my sister whose surname starts with the letter C)
Honey (this lady always called hr children Honey and they transferred the name to her)
I had mum and dad and nan and grandad (southeast England with northern parents, I wonder if nan is a working class northernism in my case). My children called us mummy and daddy til their teens then mum and dad.
Must tell my cousins in Cork that - making sure I'm wearing body-armour first, of course
Well, they can react how they like, but it's an objective fact that 'by Jesus' is a phrase in English, not Irish. The Irish form of Jesus is Íosa, for staters.
Must tell my cousins in Cork that - making sure I'm wearing body-armour first, of course
Well, they can react how they like, but it's an objective fact that 'by Jesus' is a phrase in English, not Irish. The Irish form of Jesus is Íosa, for staters.
In this thread of all places, one should be way more careful than you are being in distinguishing English to indicate place of origin, English as a language (spoken in both England and Ireland and lots of other places), Irish as a language, Irish as an indication of origin...
I've honestly no idea if you're trying to argue that somehow a phrase that's in English must have originated in England and in English English rather than Irish English, nor on what basis you're doing so.
Because saying that a phrase is in the English language and therefore can't have originated anywhere but in England is, in this thread of all places, patently nonsensical.
Or whether you're trying to argue that an English phrase can't be pronounced in a specifically Irish way, which is equally wrong.
The fact that a phoneme is absent affects the way that Irish people pronounce English. Just as the presence/absence of various phonemes in your own variety of English will affect any language you try to learn and pronounce. This pretty much is what an accent is. As an Australian I'm pretty much cursed with dipthongs I have to fight against when speaking anything else. Irish people tend not to pronounce /z/, and it doesn't matter what language they're pronouncing, the same thing will tend to happen.
I just realized that the HTML codes for phonetic symbols haven't changed since I were a lad, hence, ə, and other delicacies. It's the future!
I actually had no idea there were HTML codes for phonetic symbols - this is handy. Easier than copying and pasting each symbol from its Wikipedia page, which is what I have done in the past. Though I also tend to use regular alphabet letters here as an approximation for pronunciation, as I'm not sure to what extent people are familiar with IPA, and I don't want to be exclusionary. But I guess everyone knows the schwa. Here is a web page I just found of HTML codes for phonetic symbols. Is it just me or does the schwa symbol, ə, look quite a bit smaller than the English text?
Yes, I got fed up with copying symbols, but your point about being exclusionary is a good one. I think I will give both, phonetic and an ordinary version, e.g., /ka:t/, or cart.
Here's one for Karl, ɬ, or the Welsh lateral voiceless fricative. There is a Zulu voiced lateral fricative, ɮ, so study phonetics and see the world.
I just realized that the HTML codes for phonetic symbols haven't changed since I were a lad, hence, ə, and other delicacies. It's the future!
I actually had no idea there were HTML codes for phonetic symbols - this is handy. Easier than copying and pasting each symbol from its Wikipedia page, which is what I have done in the past. Though I also tend to use regular alphabet letters here as an approximation for pronunciation, as I'm not sure to what extent people are familiar with IPA, and I don't want to be exclusionary. But I guess everyone knows the schwa. Here is a web page I just found of HTML codes for phonetic symbols. Is it just me or does the schwa symbol, ə, look quite a bit smaller than the English text?
Yes, I got fed up with copying symbols, but your point about being exclusionary is a good one. I think I will give both, phonetic and an ordinary version, e.g., /ka:t/, or cart.
Here's one for Karl, ɬ, or the Welsh lateral voiceless fricative. There is a Zulu voiced lateral fricative, ɮ, so study phonetics and see the world.
I remember as a kid noticing how people pronounced ll in Welsh names as tons of people in Lancs went to Llandudno, and Pwllheli for hols. Most people said it as l, of course, but I think Pwllheli is very Welsh speaking. [pʊɬˈhɛlɪ] There used to be a big Butlins there?
When I were a lad, people in this part of Lancs (ie Liverpool) pronounced those two towns as Clandidno and Puckheli which may reflect a ghost of the once large Welsh speaking population here ( and accounts, at least in part, for our distinctive accent).
And there was a big Butlins in Pwllheli, not sure if it's still open.
This is the Wiki phonetic transcription of Betws-y-Coed, [ˈbɛtʊs ə ˈkɔɨd], so w is given as ʊ, which I think is a slack u sound, and the y as schwa. The ɨ I don't know.
The places that gives most non-Welsh real problems are Bwlch, Ynysbwl and Machynlleth
If we could get people to grasp that Welsh has more vowel symbols than English (a, e, i, o, u, w, y) rather than lacking vowels (as commonly claimed) they'd struggle a lot less.
This is the Wiki phonetic transcription of Betws-y-Coed, [ˈbɛtʊs ə ˈkɔɨd], so w is given as ʊ, which I think is a slack u sound, and the y as schwa. The ɨ I don't know.
ʊ is like the 'oo' in 'book' (in an RP accent).
ɨ is like saying 'ee' with your tongue further back. From the Wikipedia page on this sound, it is like the vowel in 'lip' with a South African accent, or like the vowel in 'rude' in a South East English accent.
Here is the Wikipedia page on IPA, so you see where all the sounds are in the mouth, and each sound has its own Wikipedia page.
Parental names: Mummy and Daddy then Mum and Dad.
Grandma and Grandad, Nana and Daddad. Daddad died when I was three, so don’t know if this might have changed as I grew up.
This is the Wiki phonetic transcription of Betws-y-Coed, [ˈbɛtʊs ə ˈkɔɨd], so w is given as ʊ, which I think is a slack u sound, and the y as schwa. The ɨ I don't know.
ʊ is like the 'oo' in 'book' (in an RP accent).
ɨ is like saying 'ee' with your tongue further back. From the Wikipedia page on this sound, it is like the vowel in 'lip' with a South African accent, or like the vowel in 'rude' in a South East English accent.
Here is the Wikipedia page on IPA, so you see where all the sounds are in the mouth, and each sound has its own Wikipedia page.
Though 'coid' would be perfectly acceptable. The ɨ only occurs in Northern Welsh dialects, being replaced by i elsewhere.
Comments
Edit: Or here, the Cambridge Dictionary, which you don't have to log into.
Yes, I got it wrong. Cari'bbean is RP.
You pronounce dessert "dose-ert"?
eye-ZAY-uh
fye-LEE-mun
Joseph with 's' (non-voiced)
NIN-nə-və
I actually had no idea there were HTML codes for phonetic symbols - this is handy. Easier than copying and pasting each symbol from its Wikipedia page, which is what I have done in the past. Though I also tend to use regular alphabet letters here as an approximation for pronunciation, as I'm not sure to what extent people are familiar with IPA, and I don't want to be exclusionary. But I guess everyone knows the schwa. Here is a web page I just found of HTML codes for phonetic symbols. Is it just me or does the schwa symbol, ə, look quite a bit smaller than the English text?
Must tell my cousins in Cork that - making sure I'm wearing body-armour first, of course
(I grew up in the northeastern U.S.)
Wife and I were Mommy and Daddy when the kids were little, but became Mom and Dad as they grew older.
My grandparents were Gran’Mary and Gran’daddy, and Gran and Daddy Mac. My parents were Gran and Gran’daddy to their grandkids. My mother-in-law is Mimi to her grandkids, and her mother (the only one of my wife’s grandparents that I knew) was Grammy.
That would actually be consistent with the original spelling. All of our "wh" question words were once "hw", many centuries ago.
I was quite startled when I found this out. But when I learned Danish I noticed that all their question words start with "hv". It turns out the Danes have preserved the original idea and English has shifted.
Grandad... I genuinely am unsure about how many 'd's I want to spell that with and now I feel like going to a newsagent to find a card just to check (neither of mine have been living for some time).
And one Grandma and, most crucially, on the other side it's Nana. And Lord help you if you spell it "Nanna" which the majority of cards seem to. I've no idea how the 'Nana' terminology started but in my mother's line that's quite definitely the term.
Hadn't really thought of it but it's somewhere between des with short e and dose.
It reminds me of pillow, which is pellow sort of for many here.
The names Ian/Iain and Ann are distinct here, but were not distinct in mid-west USA when we visited. And Ann was said in almost 2 syllables. So was dog: daw-awg. It's a very short awe sound here. Diaper is dye-per here. They said dye-a-per. Which if shopping we buy, we don't tend to purchase. Though a purchase will also refer to getting a good hold with your hand on something: "I had a good purchase on it, but it let go anyway." not "anyhow".
Garage. Which is a guh-RAJ. The j sounds like as in Jim or gym.
My parents were rather old-fashioned and our upbringing fairly formal. Our parents were Mama and Papa, occasionally Daddy for our father. Our paternal grandmother was Grandma, maternal grandparents were Grandmama and Grandpapa. Two great-grandmothers were Granny for one and Grand-gran for the other.
Things loosened up a bit when we were adults and our father became Daddy all the time, but Mama remained just that to her death.
Here respectively EE-yun, EYE-yun, and Æn
Very short here also. One syllable.
Similar.
Purchase meaning grip is all but dead here. I've heard anyhow, anyway, and anyways.
Same.
Mom and Dad
Maternal: Grandma and Gramps
Paternal: Grandma Lastname
Birth father's parents: Grandma and Grandpa Lastname.
Grandma and Grandpa
Nanny and Nappa (my brother's attempt at Grandpa)
Husband and I are known as Nan & Pa
Omah & Opah (daughter's Dutch in laws)
Nancy (my sister whose surname starts with the letter C)
Honey (this lady always called hr children Honey and they transferred the name to her)
Well, they can react how they like, but it's an objective fact that 'by Jesus' is a phrase in English, not Irish. The Irish form of Jesus is Íosa, for staters.
In this thread of all places, one should be way more careful than you are being in distinguishing English to indicate place of origin, English as a language (spoken in both England and Ireland and lots of other places), Irish as a language, Irish as an indication of origin...
I've honestly no idea if you're trying to argue that somehow a phrase that's in English must have originated in England and in English English rather than Irish English, nor on what basis you're doing so.
Because saying that a phrase is in the English language and therefore can't have originated anywhere but in England is, in this thread of all places, patently nonsensical.
Or whether you're trying to argue that an English phrase can't be pronounced in a specifically Irish way, which is equally wrong.
The fact that a phoneme is absent affects the way that Irish people pronounce English. Just as the presence/absence of various phonemes in your own variety of English will affect any language you try to learn and pronounce. This pretty much is what an accent is. As an Australian I'm pretty much cursed with dipthongs I have to fight against when speaking anything else. Irish people tend not to pronounce /z/, and it doesn't matter what language they're pronouncing, the same thing will tend to happen.
* my maiden name - Grandad Bain died before I was born
** short for McWhirter, my mum's maiden name
Yes, I got fed up with copying symbols, but your point about being exclusionary is a good one. I think I will give both, phonetic and an ordinary version, e.g., /ka:t/, or cart.
Here's one for Karl, ɬ, or the Welsh lateral voiceless fricative. There is a Zulu voiced lateral fricative, ɮ, so study phonetics and see the world.
By English I mean the English language, whether the Irish, US, UK or any other dialect groups.
By Irish I mean the Irish language, Gaeilge.
I thought that was standard usage.
Dw i'n gwybod am 'll' yn y Gymraeg, dysgwr ydw i.
(I know about the 'll' in Welsh; I'm a learner.)
And there was a big Butlins in Pwllheli, not sure if it's still open.
Ouch!
Argh!
If people could just get their head round how 'y'/'yr' is pronounced so much pain could be avoided.
Is it a schwa sound?
It is. I was once asked by a fellow walker if he was on the right path for Why Garn. He was indeed on a route which would take him over Y Garn...
If we could get people to grasp that Welsh has more vowel symbols than English (a, e, i, o, u, w, y) rather than lacking vowels (as commonly claimed) they'd struggle a lot less.
ʊ is like the 'oo' in 'book' (in an RP accent).
ɨ is like saying 'ee' with your tongue further back. From the Wikipedia page on this sound, it is like the vowel in 'lip' with a South African accent, or like the vowel in 'rude' in a South East English accent.
Here is the Wikipedia page on IPA, so you see where all the sounds are in the mouth, and each sound has its own Wikipedia page.
Grandma and Grandad, Nana and Daddad. Daddad died when I was three, so don’t know if this might have changed as I grew up.
Though 'coid' would be perfectly acceptable. The ɨ only occurs in Northern Welsh dialects, being replaced by i elsewhere.