How do those shipmates who give 'Miniature' four syllables fit them in? It's usually three, as minichǝ here with the stress on the first syllable. Although it uses the phonetic alphabet, the dictionary on my computer says the same.
I haven't heard it for 50 years. Now classed as conservative RP. It's usually mini, then schwa, then cher (schwa).
What about the h in where and white? Is it very old-fashioned to pronounce it?
Not in Scotland.
Exactly what I was about to say!
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
(UK readers might like to try reading a random passage while replacing all the vowel sounds with that which lives in the middle of RP 'bird' - on the IPA it looks a bit like a '3' - and seeing if they sound like they come from Hull )
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
Yes. In BBTGAF it sounds much better to sing hwich, according to his abundant ... rather than hearing witch, according... (I'm sure you know exactly what I'm referring to! ).
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
Yes. In BBTGAF it sounds much better to sing hwich, according to his abundant ... rather than hearing witch, according... (I'm sure you know exactly what I'm referring to! ).
I do indeed!
[tangent]
When we were in Belfast, we sang at a memorial service for the people killed in the Kegworth air crash, which was attended by the Great, the Good and Mrs. Thatcher. BBTGAF was the anthem, and the silly old bat fell asleep during it ...
[/tangent]
Ha Ha! Reminds me of a friend with a local bishop visiting who obviously disliked the parish and it's priest. It was Advent, reading about John the Baptist so they sang This is the record of John by Gibbons - not sure the bishop, who shared a name with the prophet, appreciated the choice
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
Yes. In BBTGAF it sounds much better to sing hwich, according to his abundant ... rather than hearing witch, according... (I'm sure you know exactly what I'm referring to! ).
When I was studying, one of the lecturers had quite a posh-sounding RP English accent, with precise articulation, and she would also pronounce the 'h' in 'wh-' words. Some of the students were kind of judgy about it behind her back - saying it was pretentious, an affectation, that the 'h' is silent, and she shouldn't be saying it. But there was something in her way of speaking that reminded me of someone I knew who'd been born in Edinburgh and then moved to England as a small child, so I asked her about her accent, if she'd ever lived in Edinburgh, and it turns out she also had as a small child.
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
Yes. In BBTGAF it sounds much better to sing hwich, according to his abundant ... rather than hearing witch, according... (I'm sure you know exactly what I'm referring to! ).
BBTGAF? Sorry, but I can’t work it out.
Blessed be the God and Father (of our Lord Jesus Christ) an eminently enjoyable sing of an anthem (YouTube) by Samuel Sebastian Wesley
When I was studying, one of the lecturers had quite a posh-sounding RP English accent, with precise articulation, and she would also pronounce the 'h' in 'wh-' words. Some of the students were kind of judgy about it behind her back - saying it was pretentious, an affectation, that the 'h' is silent, and she shouldn't be saying it. But there was something in her way of speaking that reminded me of someone I knew who'd been born in Edinburgh and then moved to England as a small child, so I asked her about her accent, if she'd ever lived in Edinburgh, and it turns out she also had as a small child.
Yes, I am guessing that it's very resistant to change, as with the short /a/ sound for northerners, e.g., bath. People who change their accent often leave a trace. Fanny, innit?
When I was studying, one of the lecturers had quite a posh-sounding RP English accent, with precise articulation, and she would also pronounce the 'h' in 'wh-' words. Some of the students were kind of judgy about it behind her back - saying it was pretentious, an affectation, that the 'h' is silent, and she shouldn't be saying it. But there was something in her way of speaking that reminded me of someone I knew who'd been born in Edinburgh and then moved to England as a small child, so I asked her about her accent, if she'd ever lived in Edinburgh, and it turns out she also had as a small child.
Yes, I am guessing that it's very resistant to change, as with the short /a/ sound for northerners, e.g., bath. People who change their accent often leave a trace. Fanny, innit?
It's strange, the rest of her accent was very RP. Long a in words like bath. I think it was more from her mother she got the accent, or at least the 'wh-,' because she moved to England so young, before she started speaking. I suppose with some things you somehow automatically adapt to your environment, but you don't notice other things.
Another thing about the way she spoke was a kind of breathiness. I don't know how to explain it, but a kind of different voice quality from what you often hear in RP - softer, breathier, or maybe more friction in how the sounds come out - which was also the same in the other person I knew who'd been born in Edinburgh. And when I think about it, it's something that I do tend to hear in Scottish voices. I find it very soothing to listen to - I like to hear Scottish people talk. It's hard to pin down and describe though, as it's not a phoneme thing, and of course everyone's voices are different anyway, so it's hard to convey that, in addition to that, a particular voice quality could be connected to an accent. I have no idea if anyone will know what I mean, or if they will think I'm talking nonsense!
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
Yes. In BBTGAF it sounds much better to sing hwich, according to his abundant ... rather than hearing witch, according... (I'm sure you know exactly what I'm referring to! ).
BBTGAF? Sorry, but I can’t work it out.
Blessed be the God and Father (of our Lord Jesus Christ) an eminently enjoyable sing of an anthem (YouTube) by Samuel Sebastian Wesley
Fineline, that may be true. I remember learning about creaky glottis, also called creaky voice, when I studied phonetics, but this is found in some women, it's said that the Kardashians use it! And I do notice it in films. Breathiness is different but may be found in some accents, I am thinking Irish English (southern), but could be wrong.
I don’t think Scots has the same short ‘a’ as northern English does.
Seven out of my eight great-grandparents were Scots, and the hw sound survives in me and my siblings. (My English born and raised children tease me for it, but nobody is ever in doubt about whether ‘great news about W...........’ is good news for cetaceans, or for the Principality.)
My English born and raised children tease me for it, but nobody is ever in doubt about whether ‘great news about W...........’ is good news for cetaceans, or for the Principality.
But then you can't do the full elephant litany. (The one that starts, How do you get four elephants in a mini?)
Some people might see that as a plus.
The breathy 'wh' was definitely still a thing in Northern Ireland, if our posher sounding teachers were anything to go by. Even now I find myself saying it having been drilled to it by one particular RE teacher who seemed to make quite a virtue of it.
And I'm surprized/surprised about what Alien from Zog says bout the ise/ize thing. Again, from earliest days in primary school, it was always -ize. Somehow I always thought -ise was a modern import from the US.
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
I think the /hw/ pronunciation was considered posh and well-spoken, I mean in England. But it seems to be dying out. (Rushes off to study old film of queen).
Historical point, that 'who' went the whole hog and got rid of /w/.
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
I've noticed Dublin RC priests say 'Jesus' with an /s/ and not a /z/ in the middle. I don't know why!
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
I've noticed Dublin RC priests say 'Jesus' with an /s/ and not a /z/ in the middle. I don't know why!
... I find it very soothing to listen to - I like to hear Scottish people talk ...
I wish I had a fiver for every time someone in Canada said to me, "I love your accent!" - I'm going to rather miss being a linguistic curiosity!
I deliberately put my name down to read the Intercessions on the last Sunday I was in Fredericton, because I knew people liked to hear me read (and, because it was a Prayer Book service, I could use the Prayer for the Church Militant, which lots of people liked, but nobody else seemed to use).
... I find it very soothing to listen to - I like to hear Scottish people talk ...
I wish I had a fiver for every time someone in Canada said to me, "I love your accent!" - I'm going to rather miss being a linguistic curiosity!
I experienced that when I was in Canada, with my southern English accent. Sometimes people weren't actually listening to what I was saying, but just enjoying the accent!
Once when I was working in Texas I had to phone someone in Washington, I think it was, and had hardly finished introducing myself before she said, "I love the English dramas on public TV!"
When I was in seminary in Chicago some of the other students asked me to teach them to say “God” because they thought it sounded so much holier when I said it. This was a Presbyterian seminary, so maybe they were conditioned to find a Scottish accent holy!
Later, when I served at a suburban Methodist church I became aware of regular disturbances in the choir when I preached. The choir was just on my fringe of vision. So I made discreet inquiries, in case I was making some unintentional faux pas. But no, they just thought the way I said “Lord” was cute and passed a nudge along the row whenever I said it. Well, it kept them listening!
Ha, some of my friends in Canada asked me to say 'You know my name is Simon and I like to do drawings', because of the Mike Myers sketch from Saturday Night Live, where he is putting on an English accent, and exaggerating the intrusive 'r' that many English people use when saying 'drawing.' I hadn't heard of the sketch, and had no idea why I was being asked to say something so odd, but I said it and they fell about laughing.
We had a gentleman from Antigua (which he and his wife pronounced An-TEE-gwa, whereas the news folks and others here pronounce An-TEE-ga) in our church. He had the most glorious accent which to my ears was very British sounding and had actually been a radio broadcaster at his home. Every year, he was asked to read the Isaiah scripture for Christmas Eve services, and bless his heart, every year he did so! You could see everyone in the congregation enjoy his reading, starting with "From the book of Isaiah..." which he pronounced I-sigh-ah, as opposed to our mixed southern I-zay-a.
When I was in seminary in Chicago some of the other students asked me to teach them to say “God” because they thought it sounded so much holier when I said it. This was a Presbyterian seminary, so maybe they were conditioned to find a Scottish accent holy!
Without a doubt. American Presbyterians love a Scottish accent in the pulpit.
We had a gentleman from Antigua (which he and his wife pronounced An-TEE-gwa, whereas the news folks and others here pronounce An-TEE-ga) in our church. He had the most glorious accent which to my ears was very British sounding and had actually been a radio broadcaster at his home. Every year, he was asked to read the Isaiah scripture for Christmas Eve services, and bless his heart, every year he did so! You could see everyone in the congregation enjoy his reading, starting with "From the book of Isaiah..." which he pronounced I-sigh-ah, as opposed to our mixed southern I-zay-a.
He made Christmas even more special!
There was an old king from Antigua
Whose wife said to him: What a pig you are.
He turned to his queen,
Said: "Is it manners you mean,
Or do you refer to my figure?"
From which I've always assumed that it is a short "i".
A college (uni) mate of mine, now a Presbyterian minister, said that when he was in high school he want on a holy land trip with a woman from the US South. He told her it was cute the way she said Bahhhh-buhhhhhl. She asked him how he pronounced it? By-b'l. She replied, "Why it don't hardly sound like the word of God like that."
When I was in seminary in Chicago some of the other students asked me to teach them to say “God” because they thought it sounded so much holier when I said it. This was a Presbyterian seminary, so maybe they were conditioned to find a Scottish accent holy!
Without a doubt. American Presbyterians love a Scottish accent in the pulpit.
And American Episcopalians tend to like English accents in their pulpits.
You could see everyone in the congregation enjoy his reading, starting with "From the book of Isaiah..." which he pronounced I-sigh-ah, as opposed to our mixed southern I-zay-a.
When I was at uni, years ago, I went to a church with an American pastor who pronounced certain names and places in the Bible quite differently from what we English people were used to. And again I noticed the same differences when I was in Canada.
Pronunciation of Isaiah was one example - he said I-zay-a, like you do, Judy, while we say I-zy-a. Another was Philemon, which he said as FILL-a-mon, while we say fye-LEE-mun. And also Joseph - in southern England, at least, people generally say it with a 'z' in the middle, while he used an 's.'
Thinking of places, he pronounced Nineveh with an 'ay' sound at the end, while in the UK I've only heard it with an 'uh' sound (schwa) at the end.
There were quite a few more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
I've noticed Dublin RC priests say 'Jesus' with an /s/ and not a /z/ in the middle. I don't know why!
Antigua is an-tee-ga and Guyana is Guy-anna, with the guy a long I sound. It's never a long E sound. To the people from both. (Family lived there).
Which leads to Caribbean. CUH-rib-ee-in or care-uh-BE-in? I actually say both depending on who I'm talking to.
We have in Saskatchewan (which if you're asked to say, we know immediately of you're luck) a small town called named Mozart, which post office remains open because people send self addressed envelopes to get the post office stamp on them. It's said mose-ert (rhymes with dessert).
This is where you have to be careful. To me, a long I is the sound English spells as 'ee'. The sound in "I" and "High" is a dipthong, not a long vowel.
Comments
Not in Scotland.
MIN-i-a-TURE
I haven't heard it for 50 years. Now classed as conservative RP. It's usually mini, then schwa, then cher (schwa).
Maybe it came down to me via my paternal grandmother who claimed descent from "Scottish aristocrats" - unspecified.
Exactly what I was about to say!
D., who was English, and didn't voice it very strongly in ordinary speech, always insisted on his singers voicing the "h" in white and where, even suggesting that we voice it before the "w" - "hwere", so that it would be heard in a big acoustic.
Yes. In BBTGAF it sounds much better to sing hwich, according to his abundant ... rather than hearing witch, according... (I'm sure you know exactly what I'm referring to! ).
[tangent]
When we were in Belfast, we sang at a memorial service for the people killed in the Kegworth air crash, which was attended by the Great, the Good and Mrs. Thatcher. BBTGAF was the anthem, and the silly old bat fell asleep during it ...
[/tangent]
I've never heard this, but just went to listen to the Merriam Webster audios of the word, and one sounds kind of like 'many a chore.'
I say MIN-itch-uh. I've only heard it that way.
Blessed be the God and Father (of our Lord Jesus Christ) an eminently enjoyable sing of an anthem (YouTube) by Samuel Sebastian Wesley
(Score PDF)
Yes, I am guessing that it's very resistant to change, as with the short /a/ sound for northerners, e.g., bath. People who change their accent often leave a trace. Fanny, innit?
It's strange, the rest of her accent was very RP. Long a in words like bath. I think it was more from her mother she got the accent, or at least the 'wh-,' because she moved to England so young, before she started speaking. I suppose with some things you somehow automatically adapt to your environment, but you don't notice other things.
Another thing about the way she spoke was a kind of breathiness. I don't know how to explain it, but a kind of different voice quality from what you often hear in RP - softer, breathier, or maybe more friction in how the sounds come out - which was also the same in the other person I knew who'd been born in Edinburgh. And when I think about it, it's something that I do tend to hear in Scottish voices. I find it very soothing to listen to - I like to hear Scottish people talk. It's hard to pin down and describe though, as it's not a phoneme thing, and of course everyone's voices are different anyway, so it's hard to convey that, in addition to that, a particular voice quality could be connected to an accent. I have no idea if anyone will know what I mean, or if they will think I'm talking nonsense!
Seven out of my eight great-grandparents were Scots, and the hw sound survives in me and my siblings. (My English born and raised children tease me for it, but nobody is ever in doubt about whether ‘great news about W...........’ is good news for cetaceans, or for the Principality.)
Some people might see that as a plus.
And I'm surprized/surprised about what Alien from Zog says bout the ise/ize thing. Again, from earliest days in primary school, it was always -ize. Somehow I always thought -ise was a modern import from the US.
I love all the variations on 'Mary'. In Ireland, north and south there is the 'Meery' pronunciation, which seems to be a kind of vernacular way of saying it. In church the priest might talk about 'Mary, the mother of God'. But Auntie Meery will be the one who buys you a selection box for Christmas.
Historical point, that 'who' went the whole hog and got rid of /w/.
I've noticed Dublin RC priests say 'Jesus' with an /s/ and not a /z/ in the middle. I don't know why!
The /z/ phoneme is absent in Irish.
I deliberately put my name down to read the Intercessions on the last Sunday I was in Fredericton, because I knew people liked to hear me read (and, because it was a Prayer Book service, I could use the Prayer for the Church Militant, which lots of people liked, but nobody else seemed to use).
Not the same sound, but there's no difference between the a in hat, bath and palm.
I experienced that when I was in Canada, with my southern English accent. Sometimes people weren't actually listening to what I was saying, but just enjoying the accent!
Later, when I served at a suburban Methodist church I became aware of regular disturbances in the choir when I preached. The choir was just on my fringe of vision. So I made discreet inquiries, in case I was making some unintentional faux pas. But no, they just thought the way I said “Lord” was cute and passed a nudge along the row whenever I said it. Well, it kept them listening!
He made Christmas even more special!
There was an old king from Antigua
Whose wife said to him: What a pig you are.
He turned to his queen,
Said: "Is it manners you mean,
Or do you refer to my figure?"
From which I've always assumed that it is a short "i".
And American Episcopalians tend to like English accents in their pulpits.
When I was at uni, years ago, I went to a church with an American pastor who pronounced certain names and places in the Bible quite differently from what we English people were used to. And again I noticed the same differences when I was in Canada.
Pronunciation of Isaiah was one example - he said I-zay-a, like you do, Judy, while we say I-zy-a. Another was Philemon, which he said as FILL-a-mon, while we say fye-LEE-mun. And also Joseph - in southern England, at least, people generally say it with a 'z' in the middle, while he used an 's.'
Thinking of places, he pronounced Nineveh with an 'ay' sound at the end, while in the UK I've only heard it with an 'uh' sound (schwa) at the end.
There were quite a few more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.
Stone the crows, I didn't know that.
Really? What about B'jesus?
That's English.
Don't Irish people tend to avoid /z/ in words like Jesus, in English?
Not generally. But the non-z pronunciation of Jesus reported in Dublin RC priests *could* be a hangover from a habit derived from Irish.
Which leads to Caribbean. CUH-rib-ee-in or care-uh-BE-in? I actually say both depending on who I'm talking to.
We have in Saskatchewan (which if you're asked to say, we know immediately of you're luck) a small town called named Mozart, which post office remains open because people send self addressed envelopes to get the post office stamp on them. It's said mose-ert (rhymes with dessert).