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"Justice"

In the US state of Tennessee a convicted murderer was sent to be executed today after spending 31 of her 50 years in prison. The attempt to kill her was failure, and now we read that “she is in critical condition, receiving life-saving care”. That is to say, they tried to kill her, failed, and are trying to save her life so they can kill her properly. The family of her victim wants her dead. I am not able to process this. How are people here reacting to it?

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/10/01/us/christa-pike-alive-tennessee-execution-halted.html?unlocked_article_code=1.FVE.tK0C.FYi3Zzq980BS&smid=url-share

Comments

  • It's a prominent news item in some outlets here in the UK - and a dreadful story it is, too.

    It's not clear what will happen to Ms Pike, though, if she survives - is it absolutely certain that the authorities will go ahead with another execution attempt?

    The sheer horror of what a 'civilised' country is trying to do, even granted that Ms Pike was guilty of murder twenty years ago, is chilling and frightening. I'm not surprised that you're finding it impossible to process.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    I noticed that the governor of Tennessee, when he was listing the legal requirements of state killings did include the word "humane."
    I find the whole thing revolting.
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    I noticed that the governor of Tennessee, when he was listing the legal requirements of state killings did include the word "humane."
    I find the whole thing revolting.

    This.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    I noticed that the governor of Tennessee, when he was listing the legal requirements of state killings did include the word "humane."
    I find the whole thing revolting.

    Sorry, I left out a "not."
    The governor conspicuously failed to list "humane."
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 1
    How are people here reacting to it?
    Words fail me.


  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    I've read that she had severe mental health problems from childhood sexual abuse and rape herself at the time of the murder and this wasn't taken into account because she was not defended well at her trial. I dont know how true that is.

    But I would be against the death penalty in any case and this was an absolutely appalling procedure.
  • SipechSipech Shipmate
    I've been trying to process it. From one angle, it's about the existence of the death penalty. On the whole, I am opposed to it, though some cases do give me cause to doubt my conviction (pardon the pun) on the matter. The Southport stabbings committed by Axel Rudakubana being an example of such a case.

    The other angle is to think in a paradigm where the death penalty is acceptable, what should be the criteria and how should it be administered. What happened this week was terrible. The process should be fool-proof.

    I was reminded of a Michael Portillo documentary on the subject, which is about 18 years old now, but still pertinent. The most efficient method is by getting the inmate to breathe in almost pure nitrogen. Because it is the presence of carbon dioxide that causes us to gag and choke, nitrogen doesn't set off the body's self defence mechanisms.

    In the case of Christa Pike, I read some of the details of her crime and was horrified by them. I shan't write them here, but they are on Wikipedia. Thought must be paid to the family of Colleen Slemmer, Pike's victim.

    If the sentence must be death, then there has to be a better way. If we call into question the death sentence, then why is lifetime incarceration without parole deemed too mild?
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    I noticed that the governor of Tennessee, when he was listing the legal requirements of state killings did include the word "humane."
    I find the whole thing revolting.

    Sorry, I left out a "not."
    The governor conspicuously failed to list "humane."

    Oddly, I somehow saw the non-existent 'not'...and read your true meaning...
    :flushed:
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    My father, who witnessed an execution (by electric chair) during his career as a journalist, was always very opposed to the death penalty, saying anyone who ever witnessed it would be (though sadly that's not always true.) In the course of an argument on the subject he was asked "what if someone killed Nicole, wouldn't you want to kill them"? He replied "Of course I would. That wouldn't make it right. That's why we have laws."
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    I seem to remember reading that the pharma companies were refusing to supply the drugs needed for state killings.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    So are they going to make her well enough to kill?
    Is that the plan?
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    There is no legal provision made for execution after the death penalty has failed. Iirc she cannot be executed without being retried and resentenced....which is she is obviously unable to stand trial for. Imo if there is going to be the death penalty (which enjoys huge public popularity in both the US and UK) it should be via firing squad.

    One thing I find hard to deal with his how her victim's mother is the one who got her the death penalty via her campaigning - and now that execution has failed. This could all have been prevented if her victim's mother hadn't campaigned for execution.

    @Sipech I find it somewhat unnerving that Axel Rudakubana's case is one that makes you wobble on the death penalty. What happened to those little girls was horrific, but Axel was also a child - and really clearly *severely* mentally ill, and profoundly failed by those with a duty of care for him. He needs to be in hospital, not killed for being mentally ill.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    Regarding Nitrogen asphyxiation:
    In the past year [2025], several US states have adopted nitrogen gas as a method for inmate execution, and a nitrogen‑filled “Sarco pod” (short for sarcophagus) euthanasia device has made headlines in Switzerland. While both claim to offer a calm, painless death, the science tells a different story.
    …
    As oxygen levels plummet, the body’s survival systems erupt into panic. People gasp, choke, thrash and experience terrifying air hunger as their cells suffocate. These are not the signs of a gentle passing but of a body desperately fighting for life.
    The Conversation.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Honestly, I think if you're going to have the state murder people, a well cared for Madame Guillotine is likely as humane as you're going to get.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Well, yes. At least Guillotin practised on sheep.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Honestly, I think if you're going to have the state murder people, a well cared for Madame Guillotine is likely as humane as you're going to get.

    I agree, although firing squad is perhaps better as it is just as instantaneous but also nobody knows who fired the fatal shot. Utah has firing squad as an execution option - I believe they are the only state that does. It should be noted that Ms Pike herself requested death by hanging.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Depends on the firing squad & how nasty they’re feeling on the day.

    As for hanging: no lack of
    incompetent/ sadistic hangmen ( never heard of a hangwoman but who knows?)
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    edited October 2
    The positive of shooting, hanging, electrocuting and beheading is that it isnt masking the killing by wrapping it in a pseudo-medical procedure. The barbarity is plain to see.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Trouble with the “pseudo-medical” methods is that they are carried out by the untrained and incompetent ( & can say so after 40+ years as a venepuncturist).

    Rule #1: First do no harm.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Trouble with the “pseudo-medical” methods is that they are carried out by the untrained and incompetent ( & can say so after 40+ years as a venepuncturist).

    Rule #1: First do no harm.

    Well its quite difficult to practice killing someone.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Not for some people. I’ve always suspected that only a sadist would sign up as an executioner.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    There is no legal provision made for execution after the death penalty has failed. Iirc she cannot be executed without being retried and resentenced....which is she is obviously unable to stand trial for.
    Not sure where you got that, but it’s not correct.


  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Depends on the firing squad & how nasty they’re feeling on the day.

    As for hanging: no lack of
    incompetent/ sadistic hangmen ( never heard of a hangwoman but who knows?)

    I wasn't suggesting that hanging was a preferable option, simply pointing out that Ms Pike requested it.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    There is no legal provision made for execution after the death penalty has failed. Iirc she cannot be executed without being retried and resentenced....which is she is obviously unable to stand trial for.
    Not sure where you got that, but it’s not correct.


    Sorry - happy to be proven wrong. Do you have a link to anything explaining what the state's options are?
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Depends on the firing squad & how nasty they’re feeling on the day.

    As for hanging: no lack of
    incompetent/ sadistic hangmen ( never heard of a hangwoman but who knows?)

    I wasn't suggesting that hanging was a preferable option, simply pointing out that Ms Pike requested it.

    Poor lady might have thought it would be quick. Fine if “hangman’s fracture” ( dislocation of C1-2) vertebrae takes place but strangulation is an unpleasant alternative in inexpert/ incompetent hands.

  • Pomona wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    There is no legal provision made for execution after the death penalty has failed. Iirc she cannot be executed without being retried and resentenced....which is she is obviously unable to stand trial for.
    Not sure where you got that, but it’s not correct.


    Sorry - happy to be proven wrong. Do you have a link to anything explaining what the state's options are?
    Off the top of my head, no, and I’m traveling today.

    Working from memory—and bearing in mind that the laws and procedures of every state are different—I would expect that once she returns to health (assuming she does), the state would move to set a new execution date. She might argue in response that in light of the botched execution, and further attempts at execution would be unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment.

    That’s purely off the top of my head.


  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    This Brit cannot understand this (no death penalty here thank goodness). If she is to be executed once she is better then why not just let her die. There have been two attempts so justice will have been done.
  • SipechSipech Shipmate
    There was one news report I heard that stated that American inmates were protected by case law (I think it was national, rather than local) that said that they had to be provided with healthcare.

    Found it. It's Estelle v Gamble So the US system effectively has two competing systems: one which allows them to kill and one which requires them to save the life.
    Pomona wrote: »
    @Sipech I find it somewhat unnerving that Axel Rudakubana's case is one that makes you wobble on the death penalty. What happened to those little girls was horrific, but Axel was also a child - and really clearly *severely* mentally ill, and profoundly failed by those with a duty of care for him. He needs to be in hospital, not killed for being mentally ill.
    This raises the question about do we make the punishment fit the crime or, as you appear to hint, make the punishment fit the person. Now the reasons you cite are mostly fair cause for not applying the death penalty. My point was that the crime itself gives one cause to question one's own beliefs. Not to say that my opposition to the death penalty has been turned around.

  • Hugal wrote: »
    This Brit cannot understand this (no death penalty here thank goodness). If she is to be executed once she is better then why not just let her die.
    Aside from the case law @Sipech cites, what medical doctor do you think will feel they can ethically fail to provide healthcare?


  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    There is such a thing as a brain death study.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Sipech wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    @Sipech I find it somewhat unnerving that Axel Rudakubana's case is one that makes you wobble on the death penalty. What happened to those little girls was horrific, but Axel was also a child - and really clearly *severely* mentally ill, and profoundly failed by those with a duty of care for him. He needs to be in hospital, not killed for being mentally ill.
    This raises the question about do we make the punishment fit the crime or, as you appear to hint, make the punishment fit the person. Now the reasons you cite are mostly fair cause for not applying the death penalty. My point was that the crime itself gives one cause to question one's own beliefs. Not to say that my opposition to the death penalty has been turned around.

    That's fair, but given that you mentioned Axel rather than the girls he killed it sounded like your questioning of your belief was about him specifically rather than the crime. I do see your point of course, it just wasn't clear to me from your comment.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    This Brit cannot understand this (no death penalty here thank goodness). If she is to be executed once she is better then why not just let her die.
    Aside from the case law @Sipech cites, what medical doctor do you think will feel they can ethically fail to provide healthcare?

    I agree with you wholeheartedly no doctor would. The law could say something else. If she was never taken to hospital she would have died. Once at hospital yes the medical professionals will do their best. I have been in hospital in the US and the medical staff wan was excellent.
  • What are churches - of whatever persuasion - in the US saying about this dreadful affair?
  • This is perhaps a dumb question but why is this in hell rather than purgatory? It sounds like this is more of a debate than just people being upset…
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    What are churches - of whatever persuasion - in the US saying about this dreadful affair?

    The RCC and Episcopalian bishops have called for the sentence to be commuted.
    The RCC official teaching is that capital punishment is immoral.
  • Thank you @Alan29.
  • The Guardian today reports that Ms Pike is still unconscious, and on a ventilator, whilst they try to remove the poison from her body.

    Am I wrong to hope that she doesn't recover, that she'll die peacefully, and so achieve closure - at least for herself...?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    The ELCA also condemns capital punishment.

    I fail to see any advantage of putting someone to death vs incarcerating someone for life. Costs up to $3mill for an execution considering the various appeals. Costs around $1.5 mil for incarceration (assuming 50 some years in prison.

    In the case of Ms Pike, considering her history of abuse as a child, I would have thought it would have been best to have send her through a rehabilitation program rather than a justice program. A key issue would have been to consider whether Ms Pike's violence was predatory or reactive.

    Had she gotten treatment she likely would have been able to be stabilized psychologically, become non violent, live safely in long term custody or possibly become eligible for supervised release eventually.

    This is what real justice could have looked like.

    On the other hand, there is the instance of the gang rape at Cornell. A local prosecutor overlooked the evidence his own police had gathered and failed to do any follow-on investigations of his own. I certainly home this woman will get justice for what she experienced.

    I mean, writing an essay after being accused of a rape. Doesn't cut it.

    I am with Jane Doe on this one.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The ELCA also condemns capital punishment.
    As does the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)


  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The ELCA also condemns capital punishment.

    I fail to see any advantage of putting someone to death vs incarcerating someone for life. Costs up to $3mill for an execution considering the various appeals. Costs around $1.5 mil for incarceration (assuming 50 some years in prison.

    In the case of Ms Pike, considering her history of abuse as a child, I would have thought it would have been best to have send her through a rehabilitation program rather than a justice program. A key issue would have been to consider whether Ms Pike's violence was predatory or reactive.

    Had she gotten treatment she likely would have been able to be stabilized psychologically, become non violent, live safely in long term custody or possibly become eligible for supervised release eventually.

    This is what real justice could have looked like.

    I think it shows the limits of victims' wishes (or those of their surviving families) being taken into account. Unfortunately the mother of Ms Pike's victim was instrumental in getting Ms Pike the death penalty.

    It is really hard to do restorative justice in cases like this, because there simply is no way to bring restoration to a parent whose child has been murdered. I think the victim's mother's feelings are normal and understandable, but they shouldn't influence how the law works.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    The Guardian today reports that Ms Pike is still unconscious, and on a ventilator, whilst they try to remove the poison from her body.

    Am I wrong to hope that she doesn't recover, that she'll die peacefully, and so achieve closure - at least for herself...?

    Not at all, I hope for this too. I think this is such a sad case because there really are no winners here.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The ELCA also condemns capital punishment.

    I fail to see any advantage of putting someone to death vs incarcerating someone for life. Costs up to $3mill for an execution considering the various appeals. Costs around $1.5 mil for incarceration (assuming 50 some years in prison.

    Difference.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Something I do not understand is that nobody seems to argue that irrespective of botching attempts to execute someone, keeping a person in prison for thirty years and then executing them looks like a cruel and unusual punishment.

    Admittedly, I am not in the USA, and one could argue that what it does is a matter only for its citizens, and none of my business. Nevertheless, back in my adolescence when there were still executions in the UK, if you were sentenced to death, you were either dead or had had your sentence commuted to something else, usually life imprisonment, within about three months of the sentence.

    Life imprisonment is grim, but most lifers get out after about 14 years, and there's at least some prospect of some sort of reformative programme while you are there. And a person can settle into it without repeated execution dates and then postponements.

    The suffragettes used to criticise the regime they were subject to if they went on hunger strikes as 'cat and mouse' but at least that was a consequence of their choice which it was their freedom to step away from.

    Keeping a person in prison for thirty years and then executing them looks to me like a double sentence, life and then execution as well, without the first sentence being one a person can know they are serving. I cannot see any excuse for the practice.

    There is something seriously wrong with a legal system that cannot see that.

    I'd prefer no death penalty at all, but even without an in principle opposition to it, if the state cannot arrange your affairs so that it executes you within about three months, it should not be allowed to at all.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The ELCA also condemns capital punishment.

    I fail to see any advantage of putting someone to death vs incarcerating someone for life. Costs up to $3mill for an execution considering the various appeals. Costs around $1.5 mil for incarceration (assuming 50 some years in prison.

    Difference.

    I am thinking in this case, after being incarcerated for 41 years, the man (sorry I could not go back to get the name) will have a good claim for unlawful imprisonment. He could die very rich.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    I'd prefer no death penalty at all, but even without an in principle opposition to it, if the state cannot arrange your affairs so that it executes you within about three months, it should not be allowed to at all.
    FWIW, generally the reason for the long gap between sentencing and execution is appeals and post-appellate challenges aimed at getting the capital sentence overturned. It’s not the state dragging its feet; it’s the one convicted and sentenced, and their lawyers, doing everything they can, in state courts (except in cases of a federal conviction) and federal courts, to delay the execution and ultimately overturn the sentence.

    And to be clear, I don’t say that with any negative judgment. I’d be doing the same thing if I were representing someone on death row.
    And this seems like a good time for the reminder that there are 50+ criminal justice systems in the US, with 50+ sets of criminal laws and procedures.

    For a quick overview, capital punishment can generally only be imposed when there’s a conviction for murder. (It may also still be allowable for treason, I’m not sure.)

    Twenty-three states and the District of Columbia do not have capital punishment, either because they never had it, because it has been repealed by statute or because of a court decision that capital punishment violates the state constitution.

    Capital punishment is still on the books in 27 states, but of those 27 states, six states have a formal moratorium on executions, and three states have an informal moratorium and/or have not executed anyone in at least 10 years. Two of those 27 have capital punishment on the books but have no one on death row.

    Capital punishment is also a possibility under federal criminal law and under military law. The federal government has conducted executions within the last 10 years, but there have been no military executions in that time.

    So all of that is a long-winded way of saying that currently, executions are legally possible in only 21 states and in the federal criminal justice system. And of those 21 states, 16 have actually executed anyone in the last 10 years.


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