Closure of Kerygmania thread
Rufus T Firefly
Shipmate
in The Styx
I was disappointed that the thread I started in Kerygmania I will declare to them... was abruptly closed after less than a day and without any contact with me, as thread starter.
I fully accept that this is a sensitive area but it seems to me to be something that needs to be addressed. I completely disagree with the comment of @TurquoiseTastic: "I don't see how anything good can come from this OP as formulated. It is not really about the passage but rather an invitation to expand on how much we dislike the motivations of a bunch of other people."
I specifically stated "My question here (and this is why this is in Kerygmania) is "how are these passages being understood by people who proclaim their faith and yet eagerly pursue policies and actions that seem to be diametrically opposed to what Jesus was talking about?""
I accept that there are few (if any) people on the Ship any more who support the actions and views of those Conservative Evangelical American Christians but it seems to me that this question needs to be urgently addressed. Far too many Christians are going silent and not engaging with this issue.
I fully accept that this is a sensitive area but it seems to me to be something that needs to be addressed. I completely disagree with the comment of @TurquoiseTastic: "I don't see how anything good can come from this OP as formulated. It is not really about the passage but rather an invitation to expand on how much we dislike the motivations of a bunch of other people."
I specifically stated "My question here (and this is why this is in Kerygmania) is "how are these passages being understood by people who proclaim their faith and yet eagerly pursue policies and actions that seem to be diametrically opposed to what Jesus was talking about?""
I accept that there are few (if any) people on the Ship any more who support the actions and views of those Conservative Evangelical American Christians but it seems to me that this question needs to be urgently addressed. Far too many Christians are going silent and not engaging with this issue.
Comments
So I can't say I'm surprised it was closed. It could have been moved to Purgatory or even Epiphanies I suppose.
It seemed to be more to do with the attitudes of a particular sub-section of US evangelicalism rather than about the passage in question.
First, I do not by any means think the thread was started in "bad faith". Indeed @Rufus T Firefly you have helpfully spelled out exactly what you hope to discuss and that is why I closed the thread.
Secondly, I think this is a very good question to ask, maybe one of the most important questions we can ask at this present time.
Thirdly, I am very much in sympathy with your mystification at how many Christians square the words of Jesus with their apparently contradictory political beliefs.
HOWEVER
This would not really be a discussion about how we see a particular Bible passage. This would be a discussion about MAGA and about how they see a particular Bible passage. But the participants would not be MAGA. Rather we would be, as @Lamb Chopped put it, speculating about the thoughts of an imaginary MAGA supporter. It would reflect our own beliefs about MAGA rather than springing from - to coin a phrase - "own voice".
The whole thing would, at best, resemble those discussions (which I sure many of us have experienced) where a whole load of evangelicals earnestly discuss what Catholics believe and conclude that it's very sad how misguided they are.
And what is more I do not think we can avoid this in any way. I've been a Kerygmania host for a few years now and regular readers will hopefully agree that I do not usually close a thread abruptly like this. I would usually try to nudge or direct the discussion into a channel which I felt would work. But in this case I can't see any such adjustment that would overcome the fundamental issue.
I think this thread could have a future in Hell. And perhaps it could be moved there. But really I think to start to get any sort of satisfactory answer to this very important question you would have to go to another site and get the information "from the horse's mouth".
I have to go out now. But I will return in a few hours to face the music. See you later.
Look, the problem is, we aren't really discussing the meaning of a Bible passage in that thread, are we? We're not talking about its origin or how it fits with other doctrines or texts, or what such-and-such in that passage really means, or any of the other Kerygmaniacal possibilities. We are not in fact discussing the passage at all.
What we are doing (if we follow the OP of that thread) is trying to climb inside the brains of people who are not us, and figure out how they justify ignoring this passage.
We could have substituted any number of other passages and got the same result. For example, that bit in the Prophets about "grinding the faces of the poor" and "selling the needy for a pair of sandals." Or the bits in James or Paul, where they direct us to have love for the brothers (and sisters), and do it in truth and not just in talk. In fact, since the Sermon on the Mount basically encompasses the whole Law and Prophets, well... there's an endless number of passages in the Scriptures that could have been subbed in to illustrate the (apparent, probable, seeming, obvious-to-me) hypocrisy of these Christians.
If you can substitute a bunch of other passages into the OP in place of the original, and still end up having exactly the same discussion, that says to me this doesn't belong in Kerygmania. Maybe in Purg, or in Hell. But not Kerygmania, which focuses on the passage itself.
Indeed.
You are (as far as I am aware) free and even encouraged to start a new thread on a different topic.
At some point obviously it gets spammy, and similarly there will still be a little bit of concern issues carried over (which is why I suggest a different topic).
Maybe just this time post a summary here or pm first? Just in case you are unlucky twice is a row.
And with @TurquoiseTastic's decision to close the thread. It's more about MAGA than the passage itself.
@Nick Tamen also makes a good point. I don't think it'd serve any good purpose to have a 'MAGA lure' in order to draw them in and then have a go at them.
Why give them the 'oxygen of publicity' to borrow a Thatcher phrase from a different context.
Besides, I'd probably 'pass' on it if I was 'MAGA-ish'. I'd be surprised if we see the two recently suspended MAGA fans again, to be honest.
All this MAGA stuff is beyond me, but then it's not as if my own Tradition is free from wonky nationalism and phyletism and other evils.
I tend to agree with this. If something is started in good faith, it feels rather autocratic to just shut it down without warning or discussion. Far better (in my view) to let the thing run for a bit with a warning to the OP to try and make sure that it stays on track.
I remain convinced that this is still a topic that ALL who profess to be Christians need to address. By simply being silent, we are in danger of seeming to accept as valid views that are contrary to true Christian beliefs. But at the same time, I think that we do need to try and get under the surface of what such people think of these passages (and others like them - such as Matthew 25:31-46). How can we seek to challenge or contradict such people if we don't have any real clue how they understand these passages?
I know that MAGA Christians are not really here to engage in the discussion but I suspect that there ARE people who do know more about how MAGA Christians understand these passages than I do.
In the meantime, I have to accept the actions of the Hosts, even if I remain somewhat unhappy. C'est la vie!
In terms of 'seeking to challenge or contradict' views that other Christians might hold and which we may find unpalatable ourselves, I would be inclined to think that's better done in 'real life' rather than an online context like this, particularly when those views are a minority position on a board like this.
I have no idea how Christians of that stripe or persuasion interpret the verses you mention.
I do know that all of us ignore or elide those verses we find uncomfortable or challenging.
'Sell your possessions and give to the poor ...'
Have I done that?
'Turn the other cheek.'
How often do I do that?
We do not privately pm posters about this kind of thing, the explanation is contained in the host’s post or can be elaborated in Styx if need be.
This is, at least partly, due to the need for hosting to be both manageable for our volunteers and reasonably timely. It is also for the sake of transparency.
I think I've given quite a detailed explanation both in the thread and in the Styx.
Strongly disagree. The more "on track" it stays, the more of a problem it is. That's why such a warning would be useless.
OK. Let us discuss that in Purgatory then. I will start a thread about it myself. Although I think it is doomed to failure - but I will explain why on the thread itself.