Sad tale of a birthday chasuble

Not a discussion topic, just a frustrating tale of a birthday present and unhelpful church seasons:
My sister-in-law asked my wife to make her an Ordinary Time chasuble for her birthday, this coming Monday, February 16. After careful embroidery featuring requested Queensland nature scenes, my wife couriered the chasuble to her sister, it arrived yesterday.
An Ordinary Time chazzie, eh? This Sunday is Transfiguration, then Lent, then Easter, then Pentecost, then Trinity Sunday. It will be half way through the year before my sister-in-law sports her birthday present.

Comments

  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    I'm confused - Monday is in Ordinary Time. I assumed that it was for your SIL to wear on her birthday - is this not the case?

    Lots of people have birthday gifts that get used at times other than the actual birthday, I'm not sure what the problem is - presumably your SIL just doesn't have many Ordinary Time chasubles and would like a new one, and is using her birthday as an occasion to get one made.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited February 13
    Pomona wrote: »
    I'm confused - Monday is in Ordinary Time. I assumed that it was for your SIL to wear on her birthday - is this not the case?
    If Anglican churches where @Foaming Draught is are anything like Episcopal churches where I am, the typical church doesn’t have daily services. They might have a midweek Eucharist, but that will be Ash Wednesday this year. From the point on, green won’t be seen again until June.


  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    Which party is frustrated?
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    Which party is frustrated?

    The sisters. One can't wear the present which the other one created, until half way through the year. @Clarence can't make a chazzie for me - well she could, but I'm a Uniting Church in Australia minister, retired at that, alb and stole is the limit of our tat. Even that is OTT for our younger ministers, the jolly church is turning into Hillsong-Lite.
  • The Wesley brothers would be turning in their graves….
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    I'm confused as to why an Ordinary Time chasuble was specifically requested, then. The problem isn't with the church seasons but the request.

    @Sojourner although I dislike Hillsong for their unethical behaviour, I don't think that the Wesleys that preached in taverns would turn in their graves at the eschewing of vestments. I think the Wesleys would be reasonable enough to accept different church traditions - and indeed Pentecostalism IS a tradition with Wesleyan heritage.
  • In some churches at least a green chasuble would, in the course of the year, receive more wear-and-tear than others, even if only used on Sundays and maybe a mid-week Eucharist.

    As to the Wesleys, I daresay John at least sometimes led worship and preached whilst vested in Geneva gown and bands...but, of course, I may be wrong, and will happily defer to others more knowledgeable than I.
    :wink:
  • Pomona wrote: »
    I'm confused as to why an Ordinary Time chasuble was specifically requested, then. The problem isn't with the church seasons but the request.

    It's requested because it will be the most frequently used! Alright, it feels like half the year; in fact, it is close to a quarter. You then do get half a year plus of Ordinary time, at least if you keep to the strict seasons. The only thing that is wrong is the timing of the request, last year or next year, and she would have had a week or so to wear it before Lent.
  • I thought perhaps the frustration was that it was shipped in time to be there for the last “green Sunday” before Lent, but didn’t arrive in time.


  • In some churches at least a green chasuble would, in the course of the year, receive more wear-and-tear than others, even if only used on Sundays and maybe a mid-week Eucharist.

    As to the Wesleys, I daresay John at least sometimes led worship and preached whilst vested in Geneva gown and bands...but, of course, I may be wrong, and will happily defer to others more knowledgeable than I.
    :wink:

    I think we have to tread carefully when it comes to speculating about what the Wesley brothers would or wouldn't approve where they able to 'turn in their graves' or, more likely, look down from heaven to see what happened next.

    John Wesley may often be called the 'Grandfather of Pentecostalism' but that doesn't mean he'd necessarily approve of it.

    A close reading of his journals and other accounts shows he tried to dampen down some of the more 'out there' aspects of religious 'enthusiasm.'

    At other times he whipped things up.

    Lack of consistency makes 'Pope John' a fascinating individual. And very much like the rest of us.

    And yes, he'd preach in gown and bands in the pulpit as well as in clerical frock-coat and gaiters outside.

    At the risk of a tangent, I often feel that both High and Low Church types get the wrong end of the stick with Wesley.

    The Wesleys were High Church Anglicans, in the 'Church and King' sense. That didn't involve bells and smells at that time.

    Equally, whilst contemporary evangelicalism owes a great deal to the Wesleys - and others - that doesn't mean that they'd go along with everything associated with that constituency today.

    John Wesley could be pretty eirenic but at other times he was rather dismissive of non-Anglicans. Again, don't expect consistency.

    First rule when reading anything by John Wesley. Don't expect consistency.

    It's one of the reasons why I'm a big fan.
  • The Lutheran me is scratching his head. For us, the liturgical color of a season is adiaphora. Sister spends a great deal of time making a chasuble, I am not going to delay in using it. If it is only for one service, I am sure the liturgical gods will look the other way.

    On the other hand, Communion on Ash Wednesday? The Pietist me is reacting harshly. Ash Wednesday it is a penitential service, more like a confessional service, Ps. 51 and all that. Communion will not be until Maundy Thursday. Note Sundays in Lent are not counted as Lent, but little Easters. Communion is permitted.

    I know, I am a contradiction of terms.
  • Like the Wesleys.

    You are in good company.

    As are we all. Paradox and contradictions abound across the whole spectrum.
  • Incidentally, is there any Christian tradition that doesn't have communion on Sundays throughout Lent?

    I'm thinking of those that do mark Lent in some way. There are some which don't of course or which have a monthly communion or even less regularly than that.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The Lutheran me is scratching his head. For us, the liturgical color of a season is adiaphora.
    It’s adiaphora for us Presbyterians, too. But that seems to me to be irrelevant if it’s not adiaphora in the expectations and understandings of Clarence’s sister’s tradition.

    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Note Sundays in Lent are not counted as Lent, but little Easters. Communion is permitted.
    The traditional wording is that they are Sundays in Lent rather than Sundays of Lent. But yes, they are not counted in the 40 days of Lent.

    We have Communion on Ash Wednesday, as do many Presbyterian churches. In my experience, that is very much the norm for (American) Episcopal churches too.

    @Gramps49, how does Communion on Maundy Thursday—the evening of which is liturgically the same day as the day of the crucifixion—fit into the penitential/little Easter distinction you’re drawing.

    (And it’s perfectly fine if the answer is a reiteration of your admission of bring a contradiction. I can certainly relate.)


  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Much though it might make those who are picky about these things cringe, it's adiaphora in the CofE too. Common Worship says specifically that the colours are not mandatory. And it was an unknown issue until the mid-nineteenth century. Until then, and well after for most, clergy wore cassock surplice and black scarf for everything, and that was it apart from whether they wore tabs and a gown to preach.

  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    That's actually how I feel too - medieval vestment use was mostly just based on what the church had, and using the nicest/most expensive set for the biggest feasts. Colours were categorised somewhat differently in general - eg black, blue, and purple were considered to be the same colour, and orange was considered to be a type of red. Dyestuffs were also more limited, but green, yellow, and red/brown were fairly easily made from plant dyes so used most often (blue dye made from woad is a light blue that fades quite quickly, but yellow dye from weld etc makes it into a more colourfast green).
  • Likewise, the Episcopal Church in the US does not mandate the color of the day, though I’m not sure it would be considered adiaphora exactly. Certainly it’s adiaphora in the sense of not being essential to the faith. But if that’s the meaning of adiaphora here, I’m fairly sure even Catholics, who do prescribe colors of the day, would agree that use of those prescribed colors are not essential to the faith.

    I don’t think a dichotomy of mandatory/adiaphora really fits here. Rather, I suspect the spectrum for liturgical colors is more
    • The use of colored vestments/paraments is mandatory except under unusual circumstances, and the colors for each day or type of service are prescribed.
    • The use of colored vestments/paraments is expected except under unusual circumstances, and the colors for each day or type of service are a matter of established tradition, adherence to which is generally expected.
    • The use of colored vestments/paraments is normal, and while tradition suggests colors for each day or type of service, those are only suggestions that can be adhered to or not as circumstances warrant.
    • The use of vestments/paraments in liturgical colors simply isn’t a thing.
    I would put my tribe in the third category, and there may be other categories I didn’t think of this morning.

    Might this be better as a thread on its own?


  • Many years ago, I grew up in a pietistic community, where a number of strange rationales for our action were developed. The practice of communion, while accepted now, was not accepted then. When someone mentioned communion on Ash Wednesday, it triggered an old reaction. I am better today.

    @Nick Tamen Not sure how your tradition approaches Holy Week. The congregation I attend now will likely not have communion on Passion Sunday, but will conclude communion on Maunday Thursday. Depends on the pastor mostly. We will have a new Pastor somewhere around the middle of March. The call will be extended next week. The new guy has already indicated he will accept. He might have different ideas.
  • Sojourner wrote: »
    The Wesley brothers would be turning in their graves….

    Aw, someone could make some chasubles for them do they don't feel left out... :tongue:
  • Ha ha ... but it would be difficult for them to spin wearing chasubles ...

    As @Enoch says, it would hsve been cassock, surplice and black scarf back then.

    Trouble is, even that's gone out of the window.

    We now have Anglican clergy in Hawaiian shirts and chinos or wearing conference badges instead of clerical collars.

    Is outrage!

    C'mon. We all know that clergy are meant to have whopping big beards and funny hats and wear Byzantine court vestments.

    As they have always done ... 😉
  • Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick Admin Emeritus
    As to the Wesleys, I daresay John at least sometimes led worship and preached whilst vested in Geneva gown and bands...but, of course, I may be wrong, and will happily defer to others more knowledgeable than I.
    :wink:

    Isn't the received wisdom that John Wesley was buried in a "clergyman's gown"?

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