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  • Yes, but does anyone (apart from the usual swivel-eyed loons) actually believe what Truss says?

    In a sense, all tories are dangerous, being given over wholly to furthering their own interests, and caring nothing for the poor and disadvantaged they have so sorely afflicted - and are still afflicting...
  • I am still giggling at the words ‘popular’ and ‘Liz Truss’ appearing in the same sentence.

    Pass the PopCon please…
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 2024
    Well, quite.

    There seem to be quite a few of these *We're the real Conservatives* groups springing up at the moment, presumably on account of the amount of bullshit flying about...
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Lettuce consider the possibilities of multiple Conservative factions tearing the party assunder.
  • :lol:

    Meanwhile, Marina Hyde's take on The PopCons and The Lettuce (coming soon to a pantomime venue near you...):

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/06/liz-truss-popcons-tory-lettuce

  • 🤣🤣

    The Popular Conservatives
    The People's Conservatives
    The Conservative Peoples Front
    The Popular Front of Conservatives
    The Unpopular Arse of Conservatives
    The Lettuce Pray For Global Britain Conservatives...
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus

    🤣🤣

    The Popular Conservatives
    The People's Conservatives
    The Conservative Peoples Front
    The Popular Front of Conservatives
    The Unpopular Arse of Conservatives
    The Lettuce Pray For Global Britain Conservatives...

    SPLITTERS!!
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    edited February 2024
    Purgatory is the board for "proper debate".

    Is there a topic for debate here? If anyone wants to debate the OP, or pick up on anything in the article linked by @Bishops Finger carry on.

    If anyone simply wants to rant about the Tories, there is an existing thread in Hell.

    North East Quine, Purgatory host
  • Y'all got this craziness going on in these modern times, too? Breaks my heart! I was hoping some refuge would be left, if it actually got dangerous here for a white, middle-class information-worker, disinclined to alternative facts.
    Lettuce consider the possibilities of multiple Conservative factions tearing the party assunder.

    Amen, Alan, @Alan Cresswell that is. May it be as you have said.

    It looks like she expects to have at least one international partner in a malevolant cahooterie. Wonder what their private phone calls have been like. So great. So great.

    Pray for a lever and a fulcrum like Mount Nyiragongo.


    And a coalition of someones with the guts to use them.
  • Purgatory is the board for "proper debate".

    Is there a topic for debate here? If anyone wants to debate the OP, or pick up on anything in the article linked by @Bishops Finger carry on.

    If anyone simply wants to rant about the Tories, there is an existing thread in Hell.

    North East Quine, Purgatory host

    I was hoping for a serious consideration of the dangerous rise of this sort of popularism, yes.
  • The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.

    Maybe it's early days, and forthcoming byelections and/or local elections might bear out the Mad Lettuce's assertion that her brand of popularism is what The People™ really want.

    Some do, no doubt, but enough to make a difference to the political complexion of the country?
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.

    Surely if the last few years have taught us anything, it's that the potential power of swivel-eyed loonery should not be underestimated.

  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    edited February 2024
    Amen, @Trudy .
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.
    ........
    Some do, no doubt, but enough to make a difference to the political complexion of the country?

    @Bishops Finger take it seriously.
    Eight years ago I watched the primary election in the U.S with absolute disbelief. We Americans may be off kilter, but I never imagined my nation had completely gone off it's rocker. And here we are again with the [redacted for legal reasons] 45th president attempting to be the 47th and with great support from the people who count -- the ones with money and votes.

    I am still aghast. And I have no idea how to counter the thinking that draws voters to candidates like him, and which makes those voters look at decent (or even less terrible) candidates with suspicion. A man [redacted for legal reasons] sexual abuse, defamation, falsifying business records, paying hush money, and on and on. has the monitary and moral support of "his" party.

    TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

    Removed defamation risk material. BroJames, Purgatory Host.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 2024
    Kendel wrote: »
    Amen, @TrudyTrudy .
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.
    ........
    Some do, no doubt, but enough to make a difference to the political complexion of the country?

    @Bishops Finger take it seriously.
    Eight years ago I watched the primary election in the U.S with absolute disbelief. We Americans may be off kilter, but I never imagined my nation had completely gone off it's rocker. And here we are again with the [redacted for legal reasons] 45th president attempting to be the 47th and with great support from the people who count -- the ones with money and votes.

    I am still aghast. And I have no idea how to counter the thinking that draws voters to candidates like him, and which makes those voters look at decent (or even less terrible) candidates with suspicion. A man [redacted for legal reasons] sexual abuse, defamation, falsifying business records, paying hush money, and on and on. has the monitary and moral support of "his" party.

    TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

    Removed defamation risk material. BroJames, Purgatory Host.

    I hear what you say, but I meant that, at the moment here in the UK, it's hard to take Liz The Lettuce and her fellow-loons seriously.

    I totally agree with you about the situation you find yourselves in on your side of the Pond.
    Trudy wrote: »
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.

    Surely if the last few years have taught us anything, it's that the potential power of swivel-eyed loonery should not be underestimated.

    This is sadly, alas, all too true. Again, I was referring to the Mad Salad Ingredient, but there are lots of others like her...

    Apologies for not having made myself clearer! However, it would be interesting to know just what proportion of the electorate might be prepared to support Insane Vegetables in their quest for World Domination. Shipmates who are far better informed about political affairs (and affinities) in this country will have some ideas, no doubt.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited February 2024
    Like many Canadians I spent the years from 2016-2022 thinking "it's awful, but it could never get that bad here, could it?" (And that's thinking not just about Trump in the US but various forms of extremism in many countries). After the Ottawa trucker convoy, I think differently about the popularity and political power of loons (after all, we have them on our money!). I am expecting the Loon Contingent out in full force in our next election and I think it's very dangerous to underestimate them.

    Now that I have typed all that I realize the common use of the phrase is giving actual loons a bad name. They are among my favourite birds and I love their haunting calls. The human variety, on the other hand ....
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    edited February 2024
    Honestly, I don't think Liz the Lettuce is a serious threat. But Bozzymandias or Nigel Garbage might be. I don't understand their appeal either, but not taking populists seriously is how we ended up leaving the EU and got stuck with a series of car-crash governments for the last eight years.
  • Yes. I am duly admonished.

    I can only petition the gods of Pegāna to implore MĀNA-YOOD-SUSHA̅I̅ to wake up, and do something:

    The chief of the gods of Pegāna is MĀNA-YOOD-SUSHA̅I̅, who created the other gods and then fell asleep; when he wakes, he "will make again new gods and other worlds, and will destroy the gods whom he hath made." Men may pray to "all the gods but one"; only the gods themselves may pray to MĀNA-YOOD-SUSHA̅I̅.

    (From the stories of Lord Dunsany)
  • Trudy wrote: »
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.
    Surely if the last few years have taught us anything, it's that the potential power of swivel-eyed loonery should not be underestimated.

    There's that, but there's also the way a credulous press will take swivel-eyed loons' self-serving claims to be the true representatives of "Real Americans Britons" as serious and legitimate. One of the most frustrating things about the American press during the 2016 election cycle was their "kid gloves" approach to Donald Trump generally, and especially to any scandal involving Trump.
  • This is sadly, alas, all too true. Again, I was referring to the Mad Salad Ingredient, but there are lots of others like her...
    And that's the problem. Lots of others like her.

    It's about force - momentum. One little leaf by herself can't do much. When masses and masses of salad units join in, attracted by the recipe; all moving in the same direction; well, that can be more powerful than anyone imagined.
  • Kendel wrote: »
    This is sadly, alas, all too true. Again, I was referring to the Mad Salad Ingredient, but there are lots of others like her...
    And that's the problem. Lots of others like her.

    It's about force - momentum. One little leaf by herself can't do much. When masses and masses of salad units join in, attracted by the recipe; all moving in the same direction; well, that can be more powerful than anyone imagined.

    Yes, it's dangerous in the extreme to say *it couldn't happen here*...
  • Nicknames for politicians are acceptable in Hell, but please do not use them in Purgatory.

    North East Quine, Purgatory Host
  • In politics, being popular is a good thing to strive for.
  • Telford wrote: »
    In politics, being popular is a good thing to strive for.

    Perhaps, but if you have to spend a lot of time explaining to folks how popular you are, you probably aren't.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 2024
    Nicknames for politicians are acceptable in Hell, but please do not use them in Purgatory.

    North East Quine, Purgatory Host

    Oops.

    My bad.

    I thought we were in Hell - apologies, and point taken!
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Trudy wrote: »
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.
    Surely if the last few years have taught us anything, it's that the potential power of swivel-eyed loonery should not be underestimated.

    There's that, but there's also the way a credulous press will take swivel-eyed loons' self-serving claims to be the true representatives of "Real Americans Britons" as serious and legitimate.

    The difference in the UK is that the press are not so much credulous as active enablers. Media is concentrated largely in a single city, involves a few hundred people who have long standing professional and personal relationships with the political class and is concentrated in a small number of organisations such that the average journalist isn't to have a successful career unless they are willing - at some point - to work for Murdoch or worse.

    Not noticing things and knowing which questions your managers may not want to know the answers to are skills that I suspect come early.

    The 'pop con' conference was fronted by a director from the IEA, and representatives of his and related Atlas Network organisations are rarely off the airwaves.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Trudy wrote: »
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.
    Surely if the last few years have taught us anything, it's that the potential power of swivel-eyed loonery should not be underestimated.
    There's that, but there's also the way a credulous press will take swivel-eyed loons' self-serving claims to be the true representatives of "Real Americans Britons" as serious and legitimate.
    The difference in the UK is that the press are not so much credulous as active enablers. Media is concentrated largely in a single city, involves a few hundred people who have long standing professional and personal relationships with the political class and is concentrated in a small number of organisations such that the average journalist isn't to have a successful career unless they are willing - at some point - to work for Murdoch or worse.

    I'm not sure there's that much of a difference between British and American media, at least in this regard. I've always thought that one of the under-explored factors in the recent rightward trend in certain Anglophone countries (U.S., U.K., Australia) has been because these are the places with a strong Murdoch media presence.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Trudy wrote: »
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.
    Surely if the last few years have taught us anything, it's that the potential power of swivel-eyed loonery should not be underestimated.
    There's that, but there's also the way a credulous press will take swivel-eyed loons' self-serving claims to be the true representatives of "Real Americans Britons" as serious and legitimate.
    The difference in the UK is that the press are not so much credulous as active enablers. Media is concentrated largely in a single city, involves a few hundred people who have long standing professional and personal relationships with the political class and is concentrated in a small number of organisations such that the average journalist isn't to have a successful career unless they are willing - at some point - to work for Murdoch or worse.

    I'm not sure there's that much of a difference between British and American media, at least in this regard. I've always thought that one of the under-explored factors in the recent rightward trend in certain Anglophone countries (U.S., U.K., Australia) has been because these are the places with a strong Murdoch media presence.

    Thing is, even if you strip out the Sun, Times and Sky, the UK still has a press dominated by the extreme right. The Daily Mail is a byword for neo-fascist scaremongering, and the Daily Telegraph and Daily Express are as bad. GB"News" isn't Murdoch but it's still a mouthpiece for the nastiest bits of the right.
  • SiegfriedSiegfried Shipmate Posts: 42
    From this side of the pond, her comments seem aimed at stirring up the same "war on woke" nonsense that the rightwing is on about here. Complete and utter garbage. But dangerous nonetheless, as it leads to purges in academia, book bannings, etc.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Trudy wrote: »
    The trouble is that it's difficult to take this sort of thing seriously, given that the PopCons all appear to be swivel-eyed loons.
    Surely if the last few years have taught us anything, it's that the potential power of swivel-eyed loonery should not be underestimated.
    There's that, but there's also the way a credulous press will take swivel-eyed loons' self-serving claims to be the true representatives of "Real Americans Britons" as serious and legitimate.
    The difference in the UK is that the press are not so much credulous as active enablers. Media is concentrated largely in a single city, involves a few hundred people who have long standing professional and personal relationships with the political class and is concentrated in a small number of organisations such that the average journalist isn't to have a successful career unless they are willing - at some point - to work for Murdoch or worse.

    I'm not sure there's that much of a difference between British and American media, at least in this regard. I've always thought that one of the under-explored factors in the recent rightward trend in certain Anglophone countries (U.S., U.K., Australia) has been because these are the places with a strong Murdoch media presence.

    As per @Arethosemyfeet above; in the UK right wing media doesn't start and end with Murdoch, there's the Telegraph Group (who also own the Spectator), DMG and Reach (who own the Express and a large chunk of all local papers), between them owning 90% of all print media by circulation.
  • I often wonder whether the Mad Cow Epidemic we had a bit back had far more serious consequences than anyone realised at the time because all logic and critical thinking seem to have gone out of the window with at least 25% of the people.

    As for popularity, it is not necessarily a Good Thing. I can think of many people over the years who were immensely popular for a time but who went on to commit crimes against humanity. Nero was extremely popular at one time, as was Caligula. (Neatly avoiding some pretty obvious 20th-century cases.)
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Sighthound wrote: »
    I often wonder whether the Mad Cow Epidemic we had a bit back had far more serious consequences than anyone realised at the time because all logic and critical thinking seem to have gone out of the window with at least 25% of the people.

    I think brain damage from leaded petrol and other pollutants among older generations is a more likely culprit - it's been implicated in violent crime so it's not much of a stretch to think it might be associated with an increased tendency towards reactionary views of this kind (particularly the nastier end of anti-immigrant rhetoric).
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    You mean this ?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    You mean this ?
    Not only does lead degrade cognitive abilities and lower intelligence, it also degrades a person’s ability to make decisions by damaging areas of the brain responsible for “emotional regulation, impulse control, attention, verbal reasoning, and mental flexibility.”

    Yep.
  • Nicknames for politicians are acceptable in Hell, but please do not use them in Purgatory.

    North East Quine, Purgatory Host

    Sorry. I also thought we were in Hell.
  • Right-wing populism, in terms of economic policy, runs across a broad spectrum, from welfare chauvinism (ie, a generous welfare state but only for the “real” French or the “real” Polish), as with the National Rally in France or Law and Justice in Poland, to the more free market populists like the Alternative for Germany, which, despite its very visible associations with Neo-Nazi and other fringe elements in Germany, remains on the more market-oriented end of the economic spectrum. Liz Truss is definitely pro-market but is this also true of all the other right wing British politicians considered populist? Are there any British right wing populists in favor of a more interventionist or generous state, at least for working nonimmigrants? (Note: I do not endorse this kind of politics at all.)
  • Right-wing populism, in terms of economic policy, runs across a broad spectrum, from welfare chauvinism (ie, a generous welfare state but only for the “real” French or the “real” Polish), as with the National Rally in France or Law and Justice in Poland, to the more free market populists like the Alternative for Germany, which, despite its very visible associations with Neo-Nazi and other fringe elements in Germany, remains on the more market-oriented end of the economic spectrum. Liz Truss is definitely pro-market but is this also true of all the other right wing British politicians considered populist? Are there any British right wing populists in favor of a more interventionist or generous state, at least for working nonimmigrants? (Note: I do not endorse this kind of politics at all.)

    Not in what passes for mainstream politics, no. There are some "honest we're not racists" racist parties of that ilk but they're tiny.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    I think the more Brexity elements of the Conservative party, especially those represented by MPs who were elected under Johnson, have a strong tendency towards that kind of politics, though they tend to phrase it with dog whistles about immigrants putting strain on the NHS.
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