You can learn lot around here. I had always thought 'tank top' was derived from something worn by army tank crew who needed to be agile in a hot confined space, but nothing like that showed up on Google.
My understanding is that it comes from tank suits for swimming in pools (or “tanks”).
As for “wife beater,” I usually hear it used in a way that can be taken as somewhat derogatory. That is to say, if you say a man is wearing a “wife beater” rather than a “tank top” (or “muscle shirt”), you’re probably saying as much about how you perceive him as about his shirt.
Now that I know it breaks no (assumed) rules I will consider why ‘normalcy’ grates. I will also try using it, with a straight face, (not easy for me!) once or twice and see how the listener reacts.
I just did a search for words ending in -cy. Here are the results. The vast majority are from adjectives that end with -t or -te. So I guess normalcy is unusual from that perspective. There are only four words - here - that end with -lcy, and the three others are taken not from adjectives, but from military ranks. So I guess normalcy is an exception to the usual. Maybe that is what you might mean by breaking a rule? With many other two-syllable adjectives ending with -al, such as fatal, regal, equal, frugal, plural, etc., -ity is added for the noun. Maybe that is the kind of thing you mean? Some have -ness, such as dismal, though that has both dismalness and dismality. No dismalcy though. You could look them all up and explore them. I am just giving some examples here, not exploring comprehensively,
Also, with normal, there was already a noun with norm, so initially an adjective (normal) was made from the noun, and then the adjective was changed into another noun (normality) and then another one (normalcy). The English language has a lot of examples of this sort of thing.
@Robert Armin , yes, what @Nick Tamen said. The stuff you set the table with is "silverware", no matter what it's made of. The knives you prepare the food with is "the cutlery".
When I were a lass, 60s, 70s maybe, a tank top was a multicoloured knitted thing, sleeveless, possibly V-necked, close fitting, worn over other stuff. Unisex - Frank Spencer in "Some Mothers Do Have Them" might be wearing one. UK usage. Sort of external vest. Knitted waistcoat with no front opening.
flatware (n.)
1851, from flat (adj.), which was used from late 14c. of plates, dishes, saucers in a sense "shallow; smooth-surfaced" + ware (n.). Originally as distinguished from hollow ware; U.S. sense of "domestic cutlery" recorded by 1895.
And fwiw, I have heard people talk about “plastic silverware.”
I have no idea how anything might sound in Saskatoon, but did see Michael Portillo got here by train on the telly once. Whether it ever received any other visitors, I have no idea. Timbuktu does, so I imagine Saskatoon must as well.
A brief tangent that I only mention because of the near-concidence of date: I once spent a few minutes on the platform at the railway station in Saskatoon, exactly 30 years ago last Thursday (it doesn't seem that long ago). I wasn't there for long enough to notice anyone's accent.
The fact that I call it a 'railway station' ought to make it of greater relevance to this thread, but that discussion seems to be happening on the 'words we could do without' thread instead.
Interesting. I get the impression that only about 12 people live in Saskatoon and they all go down to the river at 4am, break the ice and plunge into the freezing waters for an early morning swim then wrestle grizzlies with their bare hands before going home for a breakfast consisting of beer mixed with things it shouldn't be. Other than that, it's pretty much like everywhere else ...
Interesting. I get the impression that only about 12 people live in Saskatoon and they all go down to the river at 4am, break the ice and plunge into the freezing waters for an early morning swim then wrestle grizzlies with their bare hands before going home for a breakfast consisting of beer mixed with things it shouldn't be. Other than that, it's pretty much like everywhere else ...
In the UK, Stella Artois beer is called wife beater, apparently - according to several of my Facebook friends, but I've never heard it outside of Facebook. But I don't drink it, or go out drinking, so I guess I've not had chance to hear it.
Correct. It certainly was when I drank it, although said with a grimace. I think it was because Stella was strong, it could make you nasty things. I wonder if it's died out.
flatware (n.)
1851, from flat (adj.), which was used from late 14c. of plates, dishes, saucers in a sense "shallow; smooth-surfaced" + ware (n.). Originally as distinguished from hollow ware; U.S. sense of "domestic cutlery" recorded by 1895.
And fwiw, I have heard people talk about “plastic silverware.”
Just back after an intensely multicultural dinner with my wife, who is American. She says that according to her mother and her pioneer mid-western traditions in Nebraska, it's always silverware. I picked up a fork, upon which was engraved, among other things, the words 'cutlery' and 'Japan'. (The set was given to us by the other Grandma in Montana). I insist that it's cutlery anyway because it was made by a cutler and the cutlers all used to live in Sheffield before they moved to Japan. They made things for cutting, after all. And many who, as small male type persons, watched trains back in the 50s and 60s remember seeing the 'Master Cutler' Pullman train that ran from King's Cross to Sheffield, which, I feel, should be sufficient proof for anyone.
We always called it "silverware" even though it was clearly stainless steel. "Cutlery" wasn't much used in my family's circles, and I probably would have imagined some sort of cowboy equipment if I'd heard it, sharp stuff, you know...
"Silverware" is what I'm most used to, and "cutlery" is knives. "Utensils" can also be used generically, and is on the label for plastic silverware. So "plastic utensils".
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
As I said, most of what Google gives me for wife-beater isn't this sleeveless t-shirt style. It shows me things with much narrower straps on the shoulder.
And that's what I've always understood. You're the first person I've encountered that uses wife-beater for the sleeveless tee. The joys of linguistic variation.
Interesting. I get the impression that only about 12 people live in Saskatoon and they all go down to the river at 4am, break the ice and plunge into the freezing waters for an early morning swim then wrestle grizzlies with their bare hands before going home for a breakfast consisting of beer mixed with things it shouldn't be. Other than that, it's pretty much like everywhere else ...
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
As I said, most of what Google gives me for wife-beater isn't this sleeveless t-shirt style. It shows me things with much narrower straps on the shoulder.
And that's what I've always understood. You're the first person I've encountered that uses wife-beater for the sleeveless tee. The joys of linguistic variation.
Yes, that's what I think of as a "wife beater", and it's what I would wear at the gym. "Muscle T" is a much better term, in my humble o.
I have a sneaking suspicion it's a reference to the famous "Stella!!!!" line in A Streetcar Named Desire," which has domestic violence themes.
That was exactly my thought too when I heard it, but it's not. It's because Stella Artois was extra strong in terms of alcohol, to begin with, and domestic violence often happened after blokes had been drinking it. Apparently when police came to homes where domestic violence had happened, there were often empty bottles of Stella Artois. So it was associated with domestic violence.
Though there has apparently been an attempt to get rid of the term, and I believe it's not used as much as it used to be.
And why 'flatware'? Try eating soup off a flat spoon.
Heh, thouh it's a new term to me, I quite like 'flatware'. Obviously cutlery isn't completely flat, but it lies flat on the table. There is some logic in it for me. Even though I see its original meaning is for plates and saucers, to comtrast with hollow-ware (a term I also didn't know, but is satisfyingly self-explanatory).
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
As I said, most of what Google gives me for wife-beater isn't this sleeveless t-shirt style. It shows me things with much narrower straps on the shoulder.
And that's what I've always understood. You're the first person I've encountered that uses wife-beater for the sleeveless tee. The joys of linguistic variation.
Yes, that's what I think of as a "wife beater", and it's what I would wear at the gym. "Muscle T" is a much better term, in my humble o.
Well for me a "Muscle tee" is something different (ie the t-shirt with sleeves cut off, though I'd probably be more likely to call it a sleeveless t-shirt). What you're looking at there is, for me, a singlet.
I find Gamma Gamaliel's recent post to be offensive because: (1) it generally relies on ignorant and outdated stereotypes (2) it includes an arrogant and presumptive observation about "what should/shouldn't be" mixed with beer. IMHO none of these contributes to a thread where respectful curiosity, politeness, decency, and the recognition that "it's okay if people do things differently where they are" create the groundwork for cross-cultural conversations.
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
Though there has apparently been an attempt to get rid of the term, and I believe it's not used as much as it used to be.
Domestic violence is, IMO, less of a joking matter now than it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, comedians still joked about it - I don't think that happens much these days. 20 years ago, I used to hear groups of lads out on the piss ordering six pints of wife-beater with a bit of a smirk, as if the idea of getting drunk and slapping your woman around was funny.
Though there has apparently been an attempt to get rid of the term, and I believe it's not used as much as it used to be.
Domestic violence is, IMO, less of a joking matter now than it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, comedians still joked about it - I don't think that happens much these days. 20 years ago, I used to hear groups of lads out on the piss ordering six pints of wife-beater with a bit of a smirk, as if the idea of getting drunk and slapping your woman around was funny.
The attempts to stop the term being used for Stella Artois were not, however, motivated by concern for women, but by a desire to improve the beer's reputation.
I had never heard that derogatory use of Stella Artois. In fact I don't think I'd ever heard of the brand until it started marketing itself with classy, glam female models.
I will apologise to Leaf and anyone else who may have been offended by my remarks.
They were intended as good-natured rib-prodding as a caricatured response to Noprophet's descriptions of his home city and state.
I'm not the only Shippie to raise an eyebrow at what we've been told is mixed with beer in that part of the world. Mind you, almost anything mixed with Stella Artois would improve it greatly ...
FWIW, I have seen Saskatchewan and Saskatoon on the telly once and it looks a delightful and interesting place and I apologise if I have caused any offence to people from that part of the world.
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
As I said, most of what Google gives me for wife-beater isn't this sleeveless t-shirt style. It shows me things with much narrower straps on the shoulder.
And that's what I've always understood. You're the first person I've encountered that uses wife-beater for the sleeveless tee. The joys of linguistic variation.
Yes, that's what I think of as a "wife beater", and it's what I would wear at the gym. "Muscle T" is a much better term, in my humble o.
Well for me a "Muscle tee" is something different (ie the t-shirt with sleeves cut off, though I'd probably be more likely to call it a sleeveless t-shirt). What you're looking at there is, for me, a singlet.
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
Though there has apparently been an attempt to get rid of the term, and I believe it's not used as much as it used to be.
Domestic violence is, IMO, less of a joking matter now than it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, comedians still joked about it - I don't think that happens much these days. 20 years ago, I used to hear groups of lads out on the piss ordering six pints of wife-beater with a bit of a smirk, as if the idea of getting drunk and slapping your woman around was funny.
The attempts to stop the term being used for Stella Artois were not, however, motivated by concern for women, but by a desire to improve the beer's reputation.
Yes, Stella had suffered from the Burberry effect, that is, dragged down market, when the company wanted a more upmarket image. At one point, every scally in London seemed to be wearing Burberry scarves, etc., but not now.
I will apologise to Leaf and anyone else who may have been offended by my remarks.
They were intended as good-natured rib-prodding as a caricatured response to Noprophet's descriptions of his home city and state.
I'm not the only Shippie to raise an eyebrow at what we've been told is mixed with beer in that part of the world. Mind you, almost anything mixed with Stella Artois would improve it greatly ...
FWIW, I have seen Saskatchewan and Saskatoon on the telly once and it looks a delightful and interesting place and I apologise if I have caused any offence to people from that part of the world.
Very nice of you to write all of this. If you believe in penance, a redeye is 50-50 tomato juice and beer. Drink one for breakfast.
Saskatchewan is interesting mostly in my view because we lack population density. A lot of the province is truly wild. We are 400km from home in our cabin, saw a bald eagle steal a fish from a blue heron today. Very dramatic. Lots of bird talk among the grebes and geese about it, and of the frost due overnight.
On another, I loathe the term "wife beater". Muscle shirt if you must.
Saskatchewan is interesting mostly in my view because we lack population density. A lot of the province is truly wild. We are 400km from home in our cabin, saw a bald eagle steal a fish from a blue heron today. Very dramatic. Lots of bird talk among the grebes and geese about it, and of the frost due overnight.
My then husband and I almost moved to Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, 40 years ago. But that's another story for another day.
Instead here I am in the Phoenix area -- lots of population density and a slightly different climate from Saskatchewan. (I do, however, have an occasional blue heron in the park behind my house.)
As I understand it a tank top is equivalent to a British "vest". An undergarment with oval neck-hole and sculpted armholes -- ends in straps, so to speak. A wife beater is like a t-shirt with the sleeves cut off. A crew neck, and shoulders completely covered.
Comments
As for “wife beater,” I usually hear it used in a way that can be taken as somewhat derogatory. That is to say, if you say a man is wearing a “wife beater” rather than a “tank top” (or “muscle shirt”), you’re probably saying as much about how you perceive him as about his shirt.
I just did a search for words ending in -cy. Here are the results. The vast majority are from adjectives that end with -t or -te. So I guess normalcy is unusual from that perspective. There are only four words - here - that end with -lcy, and the three others are taken not from adjectives, but from military ranks. So I guess normalcy is an exception to the usual. Maybe that is what you might mean by breaking a rule? With many other two-syllable adjectives ending with -al, such as fatal, regal, equal, frugal, plural, etc., -ity is added for the noun. Maybe that is the kind of thing you mean? Some have -ness, such as dismal, though that has both dismalness and dismality. No dismalcy though. You could look them all up and explore them. I am just giving some examples here, not exploring comprehensively,
Also, with normal, there was already a noun with norm, so initially an adjective (normal) was made from the noun, and then the adjective was changed into another noun (normality) and then another one (normalcy). The English language has a lot of examples of this sort of thing.
muscle shirt = male garment
same type of shirt.
Flatware - not heard of it. Silverware or cutlery - same thing. We sometimes say "eating weapons".
My parents would say "eating irons".
A brief tangent that I only mention because of the near-concidence of date: I once spent a few minutes on the platform at the railway station in Saskatoon, exactly 30 years ago last Thursday (it doesn't seem that long ago). I wasn't there for long enough to notice anyone's accent.
The fact that I call it a 'railway station' ought to make it of greater relevance to this thread, but that discussion seems to be happening on the 'words we could do without' thread instead.
This is offensive.
Correct. It certainly was when I drank it, although said with a grimace. I think it was because Stella was strong, it could make you nasty things. I wonder if it's died out.
Just back after an intensely multicultural dinner with my wife, who is American. She says that according to her mother and her pioneer mid-western traditions in Nebraska, it's always silverware. I picked up a fork, upon which was engraved, among other things, the words 'cutlery' and 'Japan'. (The set was given to us by the other Grandma in Montana). I insist that it's cutlery anyway because it was made by a cutler and the cutlers all used to live in Sheffield before they moved to Japan. They made things for cutting, after all. And many who, as small male type persons, watched trains back in the 50s and 60s remember seeing the 'Master Cutler' Pullman train that ran from King's Cross to Sheffield, which, I feel, should be sufficient proof for anyone.
Hm. That sounds like what we used to call "muscle shirts". Like this http://starteeapparel.com/2150-mens-cotton-muscle-tee/
Yeah, that's a wife-beater.
That certainly is the usage here.
As I said, most of what Google gives me for wife-beater isn't this sleeveless t-shirt style. It shows me things with much narrower straps on the shoulder.
Like this: https://www.amazon.com/elpishop-Cotton-Breathable-Beater-Ribbed/dp/B07NQGCW7X
And that's what I've always understood. You're the first person I've encountered that uses wife-beater for the sleeveless tee. The joys of linguistic variation.
Why?
Yes, that's what I think of as a "wife beater", and it's what I would wear at the gym. "Muscle T" is a much better term, in my humble o.
That was exactly my thought too when I heard it, but it's not. It's because Stella Artois was extra strong in terms of alcohol, to begin with, and domestic violence often happened after blokes had been drinking it. Apparently when police came to homes where domestic violence had happened, there were often empty bottles of Stella Artois. So it was associated with domestic violence.
Though there has apparently been an attempt to get rid of the term, and I believe it's not used as much as it used to be.
Heh, thouh it's a new term to me, I quite like 'flatware'. Obviously cutlery isn't completely flat, but it lies flat on the table. There is some logic in it for me. Even though I see its original meaning is for plates and saucers, to comtrast with hollow-ware (a term I also didn't know, but is satisfyingly self-explanatory).
Well for me a "Muscle tee" is something different (ie the t-shirt with sleeves cut off, though I'd probably be more likely to call it a sleeveless t-shirt). What you're looking at there is, for me, a singlet.
I would welcome a host post on this.
Domestic violence is, IMO, less of a joking matter now than it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, comedians still joked about it - I don't think that happens much these days. 20 years ago, I used to hear groups of lads out on the piss ordering six pints of wife-beater with a bit of a smirk, as if the idea of getting drunk and slapping your woman around was funny.
The attempts to stop the term being used for Stella Artois were not, however, motivated by concern for women, but by a desire to improve the beer's reputation.
They were intended as good-natured rib-prodding as a caricatured response to Noprophet's descriptions of his home city and state.
I'm not the only Shippie to raise an eyebrow at what we've been told is mixed with beer in that part of the world. Mind you, almost anything mixed with Stella Artois would improve it greatly ...
FWIW, I have seen Saskatchewan and Saskatoon on the telly once and it looks a delightful and interesting place and I apologise if I have caused any offence to people from that part of the world.
Exactly
I'm not sure that those wearing them worry too much about such fine differences.
Seriously, I appreciate your post.
Yes, Stella had suffered from the Burberry effect, that is, dragged down market, when the company wanted a more upmarket image. At one point, every scally in London seemed to be wearing Burberry scarves, etc., but not now.
In which country?
Very nice of you to write all of this. If you believe in penance, a redeye is 50-50 tomato juice and beer. Drink one for breakfast.
Saskatchewan is interesting mostly in my view because we lack population density. A lot of the province is truly wild. We are 400km from home in our cabin, saw a bald eagle steal a fish from a blue heron today. Very dramatic. Lots of bird talk among the grebes and geese about it, and of the frost due overnight.
On another, I loathe the term "wife beater". Muscle shirt if you must.
That would be a real penance - more so than 50 Hail Marys - but then I've never tried a red eye, just imagining.
Instead here I am in the Phoenix area -- lots of population density and a slightly different climate from Saskatchewan. (I do, however, have an occasional blue heron in the park behind my house.)
I would call that a tank top.
And epergne of course. Never sit down to a meal without one.
We would not dream of such a course of action.