The only person claiming that a Russian Jew in Israel is not ethnically Russian is you.
I’m not sure what point that scores, as the only person claiming that a Russian Jew in Israel is ethnically Russian is you, so 1-to-1.
When Disraeli was abused in the British House of Commons because he was a Jew, he claimed it as his heritage even though he converted at 12 to Christianity. Only a fool would say Disraeli, Moses Montefiore, Ed Miliband and others are not ethnically British.
Perhaps the problem is that we’re using ethnicity to mean different things, without acknowledging that difference in usage. I thought I was being clear that I was using ethnicity in a sense where nationality, national culture, language, cultural traditions and the like are not relevant markers, but rather where the relevant marker is ancestry, particularly an ancestry that has been shaped by endogamy. That is why I’ve put some focus on things like DNA. If I was not adequately clear about that, that is on me.
And I’ve been using ethnicity in that specific sense not out of any motive of othering, but rather because I think it aligns with Jewish self-understanding of Jewishness. And that’s how this sidebar got started—by noting that Jewishness is about more than religion. It is about ethnicity in the sense of ancestry. And that’s because as I understand it, and as I think is reflected in things like the Law of Return, descent from Jewish ancestors is of central importance in understanding Jewishness from a Jewish perspective.
Let's see what an Israeli sociologist says about this.
Those mixed ethnics who chose immigration to Israel (often due to the lack of alternative destinations) had to readjust their self-concept in the highly charged national context of the Jewish state. Albeit endowed with full economic and political citizenship by the Law of Return, partial Jews felt like second-rate citizens in many contexts controlled by the Jewish Orthodoxy. While belonging to the titular Russian or Ukrainian nations in their Soviet past, in Israel, many half-Jews were recast as members of an ethnic minority.
Larissa Remennick (2018) "Choosing One or Being Both: The Identity Dilemmas of Russian-Jewish Mixed Ethnics Living in Russia and in Israel" East European Jewish Affairs
Volume 48 pages 118-138 https://doi.org/10.1080/13501674.2018.1475176
In this thread, when I posted, just you. I’m afraid I haven’t yet mastered foreseeing, recognizing and responding to authorities that haven’t been cited yet.
I notice that she refers to “belonging to the titular Russian or Ukrainian nations in their Soviet past” (my emphasis) and to “many half-Jews,” which leads me to wonder if perhaps she is talking about something different from what I have said I am talking about.
While not an Israeli sociologist, I’ll cite the Wikipedia article “Who is a Jew?” as reflecting the direction from which I’m approaching this.
And with that, I’m done. I really don’t care if I persuade you of the perspective I’m coming from here. And it is, as you said, tiresome, as my sense is that you’re still attacking what you think I’m saying rather than what I am actually saying, or trying to say. So, if you want to weigh in again, you’ll get the last word.
Comments
I’m not sure what point that scores, as the only person claiming that a Russian Jew in Israel is ethnically Russian is you, so 1-to-1.
Perhaps the problem is that we’re using ethnicity to mean different things, without acknowledging that difference in usage. I thought I was being clear that I was using ethnicity in a sense where nationality, national culture, language, cultural traditions and the like are not relevant markers, but rather where the relevant marker is ancestry, particularly an ancestry that has been shaped by endogamy. That is why I’ve put some focus on things like DNA. If I was not adequately clear about that, that is on me.
And I’ve been using ethnicity in that specific sense not out of any motive of othering, but rather because I think it aligns with Jewish self-understanding of Jewishness. And that’s how this sidebar got started—by noting that Jewishness is about more than religion. It is about ethnicity in the sense of ancestry. And that’s because as I understand it, and as I think is reflected in things like the Law of Return, descent from Jewish ancestors is of central importance in understanding Jewishness from a Jewish perspective.
Larissa Remennick (2018) "Choosing One or Being Both: The Identity Dilemmas of Russian-Jewish Mixed Ethnics Living in Russia and in Israel" East European Jewish Affairs
Volume 48 pages 118-138 https://doi.org/10.1080/13501674.2018.1475176
So no. Not just me.
I notice that she refers to “belonging to the titular Russian or Ukrainian nations in their Soviet past” (my emphasis) and to “many half-Jews,” which leads me to wonder if perhaps she is talking about something different from what I have said I am talking about.
While not an Israeli sociologist, I’ll cite the Wikipedia article “Who is a Jew?” as reflecting the direction from which I’m approaching this.
And with that, I’m done. I really don’t care if I persuade you of the perspective I’m coming from here. And it is, as you said, tiresome, as my sense is that you’re still attacking what you think I’m saying rather than what I am actually saying, or trying to say. So, if you want to weigh in again, you’ll get the last word.