sensitive words

I made a faux pas in a thread when I mentioned the TV program
Wogs Out Of Work
.

On another board a while ago the software referred a post to the admins when I stated my mother liked
Gypsy
Rose Lee. The post did get approved, but it had never occurred to me that
Gypsy
was a sensitive term.
If, eg, I was to mention the Bob Dylan song Went To See The
Gypsy
about his meeting with Elvis Presley, should I use hidden text?

Comments

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    As for the name of the burlesque performer, I'm not sure how one would identify her without incorporating her problematic first name. Maybe just "Rose Lee", as in "A nightclub hosting Rose Lee got raided by the morality squad"? Maybe after awhile, that would start to flow a bit better?

    Due to epiphanic considerations, I have occassionally on the ship referred to a certain novel as "that book by Nabokov", sorta like superstitious actors using "the Scottish play" gets used for "Macbeth". I'm not sure that would work as well for the name of a real, historical figure, though.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I made a faux pas in a thread when I mentioned the TV program
    Wogs Out Of Work
    .

    Apparently, that was the name of the play, and the TV shows spun from it was called Acropolis Now, with Greeks in Australia being the target of the spoofing, and presumably the slur in the original theatrical title, with scripts created by Australians of Greek descent themselves.

    But I am aware that it in other places, that word can refer to groups who have suffered a bit more from the colonial misdeeds of the West.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited 3:13AM
    It occurs to me that if you were to write eg. "Rose Lee was the greatest burlesque performer of all time", and then somebody unfamiliar with the name were to google the sentence, they would see the problematic first-name, this defeating the purpose of the omission anyway.
  • Pardon me for my ignorance but when did
    Gypsy
    become an offensive term?

    About 20 years ago, I was in an area where there were plenty of such people, settled in houses. I took a funeral service for one of their leading grandmas and shortly afterwards took a wedding for the same family. They were happy and proud to call themselves
    Gypsy

    After that, I encountered a number of similar people in the north of England and then in Surrey, over a number of years. On all occasions, they were quite happy to own the title.

    With regard to other "sensitive" words, it seems to me that a lot depends on the context. If you are quoting the title of a film or book, then it might be very confusing to omit the word altogether. Is it acceptable to use asterisks instead? After all, you are not using the word yourself, but "simply" quoting another person's use.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    I think the word is outdated nowadays, but that said, many Romany’s prefer the G word to “Traveller” which they hate
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    edited 11:45AM
    I think there is a massive pond difference with respect to
    Gypsy
    .

    In the UK it remains pretty common and forms part of the officially accepted initialism GRT for traditionally nomadic communities in these islands.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    My understanding was that it's different when it's someone's name (or a non-offensive word in another language). I have been part of plenty of discussions on Facebook about the musical about the singer, we say the name of the musical openly and it's not been an issue. These groups are mostly American too.

    Is it really on a par with the n-word in the US? I know some of the lyrics from Sondheim musicals have been changed, such as words that are now understood to be offensive to gay people, but I've never heard any talk of changing the name of this musical or the main character.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited 1:58PM
    fineline wrote: »
    Is it really on a par with the n-word in the US?
    No, nowhere close to being on a par, in my experience. I suspect most (non-Romani) Americans don’t hear it as a racial slur.

    This from the Wikipedia article on “Romani people” might be helpful:
    In the English language, the Romani are widely known by the exonym Gypsies (or Gipsies), which is considered a pejorative by some Romani due to its connotations of illegality and irregularity as well as its historical use as a racial slur. In the United Kingdom, the term Gypsies is preferred by some of the Kale and Romanichal, and is used to refer to them in official documentation. The attendees of the first World Romani Congress in 1971 unanimously voted to reject the use of all exonyms for the Romani, including Gypsy.
    (Footnotes omitted.)

    Meanwhile, there’s a more extensive article on “Names of the Romani People.”

    I’ll also note that in addition to the aforementioned musical and its titular character, the word in question is also a term historically used in American theater to mean a hard-working singer or dancer in the chorus who constantly goes from show to show. I believe, though, that over the last 10+ years, Actors Equity and others in the theater community have tried to move away from using the term to mean that.

    fineline wrote: »
    I know some of the lyrics from Sondheim musicals have been changed, such as words that are now understood to be offensive to gay people, but I've never heard any talk of changing the name of this musical or the main character.
    And I doubt you will, given that titular character (she’s actually not the main character, her mother is the main character) was a real person and that was her stage name.


  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    It does not seem practical to refer to Romani Rose Lee.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    edited 8:32PM
    Or the number of songs and such in which that's the title or in the lyrics, like the ones by Cher and Fleetwood Mac.

    So wait, does this mean that Ship policy is that we can't, without hiding the text, refer to songs like
    "Gypsy," or "Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves"

    by Fleetwood Mac and Cher, and all the others? Can we actually not refer to
    Gypsy Rose Lee

    without hiding the text?
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    I'm now curious about the Sondheim lyrics referring to gay people... not least of which because he himself was gay and surely knew what words were considered at various points as offensive to gay people (and my follow-up is did he make those changes himself, or did others, and were those words used intentionally for effect or historical accuracy or what have you).
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    I'm now curious about the Sondheim lyrics referring to gay people... not least of which because he himself was gay and surely knew what words were considered at various points as offensive to gay people (and my follow-up is did he make those changes himself, or did others, and were those words used intentionally for effect or historical accuracy or what have you).

    (Not to mention that we've "reclaimed" the word queer, so if that's one of the words...)
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    For what it's worth, some time ago we had a keynote speaker who identifies himself as a [can't bear to hide the word AGAIN] pastor, and expressly doesn't want to have that word hidden or changed.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    ... [can't bear to hide the word AGAIN] ...

    Hiding it here seems rather pointless -- did anyone reading this thread not click at least the first time to find out what the subject of discussion is?
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