Platform 9 and 4/4: A New Railway Appreciation Thread

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  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    Years ago, upon a visit to the 600mm-gauge barely pronounceable Schinznacher Baumschulbahn, Switzerland, I was surprised to discover that they once appear to have owned a German-built NG/G 13 Garrett from 1927/28, which must have looked absolutely spectacular: they named it Drakensberg. Saved from South Africa in the mid-1980s, they did a complete overhaul - which unsurprisingly, seeing the size of the monster, took them more than 10 years! - Here's a low-quality video of it running: https://youtube.com/watch?v=upTc0ahGtoA. :)

    When the track layout was changed in later years, sadly they couldn't run any longer... but apparently the Swiss sold it on to the Welsh! Which explains why the Vale of Rheidol Railway is now its proud owner! Isn't that amazing?

    Drakensberg seems to be quite happy in Wales, see video! :)

    For the storyline in English, read up here: https://vor.wales/blog/hanomag-1927-built-ng-g13-garratt-no-60-drakensberg/
  • Wesley J wrote: »
    Years ago, upon a visit to the 600mm-gauge barely pronounceable Schinznacher Baumschulbahn, Switzerland, I was surprised to discover that they once appear to have owned a German-built NG/G 13 Garrett from 1927/28, which must have looked absolutely spectacular: they named it Drakensberg. Saved from South Africa in the mid-1980s, they did a complete overhaul - which unsurprisingly, seeing the size of the monster, took them more than 10 years! - Here's a low-quality video of it running: https://youtube.com/watch?v=upTc0ahGtoA. :)

    When the track layout was changed in later years, sadly they couldn't run any longer... but apparently the Swiss sold it on to the Welsh! Which explains why the Vale of Rheidol Railway is now its proud owner! Isn't that amazing?

    Drakensberg seems to be quite happy in Wales, see video! :)

    For the storyline in English, read up here: https://vor.wales/blog/hanomag-1927-built-ng-g13-garratt-no-60-drakensberg/

    Many thanks for that, also for recalling happy memories of a trip into the Drakensberg mountains a few years ago (also visited Sandstone: https://www.sandstone-estates.com/ on the same trip).
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    Brilliant - they have NG/G13 number 49! :)
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I can't remember whether I've mentioned this on this thread before, but the summer before the pandemic, I had a short break in North Wales. It included a day going from Porthmadog to Caenarfan and back on the West Highland and a day going up to Blaenau Ffestiniog on the Ffestiniog. Actually, although I did a few other very enjoyable things while I was up there, those were the two main reasons for going.

    The Welsh Highland day was in beautiful sunny weather. My train was Garrett hauled (green) in both directions and we crossed another in both directions at Rhyd Ddu (red). The Ffestiniog day was drizzly. I was pulled uphill by a Fairlie and back down by the replica Linton and Barnstable locomotive. Altogether two very memorable trips.

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited August 31
    On the WHR I've only done Caernarfon-Beddgelert (one way) - red Garratt!

    Most recent FR trip was Porthmadog-Tan-y-Bwlch (return) in lovely vintage bogie carriages hauled by "Merddin Emrys".

    On the Vale of Rheidol a couple of years back we sat in the open carriage right behind the loco going uphill - excellent! (Can't remember which loco - not the Garratt which hadn't arrived by then). Lovely sunny day.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I've not been aboard much lately, but am doing some browsing tonight. The New Suth Wales Government Railways had a class of Garratt locomotives in the ear1y 1950's. I can't remember exactly how many were delivered, but my memory is that of a planned class of 50, only 40 or so were actually delivered for heavy freight. As was so common on NSWGR locos in the 1950's, various changes were made to the class during the course of delivery.

    They were not the quietest of locomoives built. In suburban Sydney, there's a climb of about 200m from the Parramatta River at Meadowbank to Hornsby, 15 or so km north. The sound of a Garratt making the climb spread over much of what was then the suburban area.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited August 31
    The Belgian SNCV concern had a couple of Garratt tram engines, on metre gauge, for freight traffic. The wheels and motion were boxed in, and the all-over cab was an elongated version of that fitted to their standard enclosed tram engines:

    https://www.modelrailroading.nl/articulation/netherlands/images/NMVB 850-851/NMVB Garratt 1.JPG

    They were built in 1930, and, although Durrant says they were mothballed in 1933, other sources say they lasted until 1952. They may well have been brought out of storage to meet wartime exigencies.

    There was also just one Garratt in the Netherlands, on the Limburgsche Tramweg Maatschapij lines (LTM) in the south-east around Maastricht, of standard gauge, and possibly the only Beyer Garratt with inside cylinders. This might not be immediately obvious from photographs, as the wheels were boxed in.

    https://nvbs-actueel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/archiefnieuws-03-NEG147-093.jpg

    It went to Germany in 1941, after its own line was closed, and its subsequent history is apparently unknown. The photo shows it in store, along with other LTM engines.

  • Wesley J wrote: »
    Brilliant - they have NG/G13 number 49! :)

    And I have just recovered my photo of it, together with its twin! I thought it was lost. What a lovely engine the G13 is.
  • Apparently the VofR kept the name "Drakensberg" as it means "Dragon's Mountain" - highly appropriate for Wales!
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    The Belgian SNCV concern had a couple of Garratt tram engines, on metre gauge, for freight traffic. The wheels and motion were boxed in, and the all-over cab was an elongated version of that fitted to their standard enclosed tram engines:

    https://www.modelrailroading.nl/articulation/netherlands/images/NMVB 850-851/NMVB Garratt 1.JPG

    They were built in 1930, and, although Durrant says they were mothballed in 1933, other sources say they lasted until 1952. They may well have been brought out of storage to meet wartime exigencies.

    There was also just one Garratt in the Netherlands, on the Limburgsche Tramweg Maatschapij lines (LTM) in the south-east around Maastricht, of standard gauge, and possibly the only Beyer Garratt with inside cylinders. This might not be immediately obvious from photographs, as the wheels were boxed in.

    https://nvbs-actueel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/archiefnieuws-03-NEG147-093.jpg

    It went to Germany in 1941, after its own line was closed, and its subsequent history is apparently unknown. The photo shows it in store, along with other LTM engines.

    What fascinating, outlandish engines, BF - but they somehow make sense! Thank you! :)
  • You're welcome!

    I first read about these engines in an Auncient Boke, y-clept Bygone Light Railways of Europe, published by Oakwood Press in 1973. It was written by a Dane - Ole Winther Laursen - and is well worth looking out for (copies crop up on eBay now and then).

    The section on Danish light railways - mostly standard-gauge, though there was an extensive metre-gauge system on the island of Bornholm - is especially interesting, as these lines were (and are) hardly ever mentioned in English publications. They were pioneers in the use of early diesel locomotives and railcars, often of very old-fashioned appearance, but many lasted into the 1960s, and AFAIK some have been preserved.
  • I don't know about Denmark, but there are narrow-gauge railways on (as far as I can see) four of the north German islands, one of them horse-drawn! There is also the famous "Molli" but that's on the mainland I think.
  • There are (or were) narrow-gauge railways on Borkum, Juist, Wangeroog, Langeoog, Spiekerooge, Amrum, and Sylt!

    W J K Davies, in Railway Holiday in Northern Germany (David & Charles 1965) describes some of them. As you say, some are still working, though I can't recall offhand which one is now horse-worked - at the time of Davies' visit in 1964, all were dieselised (though Borkum had a couple of steam locomotives for times of heavy traffic, and Wangerooge - whose line was run by DB - had an 0-6-0T in reserve).
  • BTW, the *Molli* line is indeed on the mainland, and has a splendid section of street running in Bad Doberan:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molli_railway

    The horse-worked island line is the Inselbahn Spiekeroog:

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inselbahn_Spiekeroog

  • Only marginally to do with this thread - but there has been a terrible funicular accident in the centre of Lisbon. This is one of four funiculars in the city, and the best known - I lived in Lisbon and used it on a number of occasions. The car's body will have had no crash integrity whatsoever. It is a tragedy. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cpqnnllppnpt
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Yes, the Lisbon accident has been on the news here this morning. A terrible thing to happen.

    On unusual north German minor railways, somewhere on the Frisian coast or islands there is a narrow gauge network where the locals drive their own vehicles around the system, an option which I don't think has existed here anywhere since the 1820-30s. I saw a film of it fairly recently on a television channel, and it appeared to be still operating. However, I have not been able to find out much about it. Some of the vehicles are little diesel trucks and some I think, are either sail powered or can be powered by an auxiliary sail if the wind is right.

  • Found it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lüttmoorsiel-Nordstrandischmoor_island_railway. Fascinating though I hope they don't meet a South African Garratt (same gauge) coming the other way!"
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    Some crazy Frisian railway enthusiast buying one and shipping it up there? :smiley:
  • :lol:

    Well researched @Baptist Trainfan - this railway is one I've not heard of before...
    Apropos the Lisbon Elevador disaster - I've also been on all of them IIRC. Funicular railway accidents anywhere are very rare indeed, I think, especially involving death or injury.
  • Obviously we don't know what happened. Having read most of the recent UK railway accident reports, I'm inclined to speculate that some sort of clamp holding the car to the cable developed a hairline crack which - invisible to the naked eye even on inspection - slowly propagated over a period of time until it finally broke. If I'm right (and I may not be) only ultrasonic testing would have detected this - and who'd think of doing that on a slow-moving funicular? My explanation does however raise the question of redundancy: i.e. the failure of one crucial part should not be catastrophic.
  • Obviously we don't know what happened. Having read most of the recent UK railway accident reports, I'm inclined to speculate that some sort of clamp holding the car to the cable developed a hairline crack which - invisible to the naked eye even on inspection - slowly propagated over a period of time until it finally broke. If I'm right (and I may not be) only ultrasonic testing would have detected this - and who'd think of doing that on a slow-moving funicular? My explanation does however raise the question of redundancy: i.e. the failure of one crucial part should not be catastrophic.

    Yes, the real cause may not be known for some time, though your speculation may be right.

    Are the other Lisbon Elevadores (sp?) being checked meanwhile?

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited September 4
    I think so, certainly their operation has been suspended. That includes the Baixa lift. I'm intrigued that they now have route numbers in the E (eletrico = tram) sequence.

    https://www.carris.pt/viaje/alteracoes-de-servico/ascensores-e-elevador-da-carris-temporariamente-encerrados
  • Only to be expected under the circumstances, I guess.

    Whilst on the subject, are there (or have there been) any street funiculars anywhere else in the world? There was one near Porto, but it was freight-only.
  • ETA:

    The freight-only line near Porto was a rack-railway in the street, not a funicular. My mistake.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited September 4
    Found it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lüttmoorsiel-Nordstrandischmoor_island_railway. Fascinating though I hope they don't meet a South African Garratt (same gauge) coming the other way!"
    Thank you for that. It looks like the one I saw the television programme about. Well discovered.
  • Found it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lüttmoorsiel-Nordstrandischmoor_island_railway. Fascinating though I hope they don't meet a South African Garratt (same gauge) coming the other way!"

    Perfect! I want a railway like that.
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    edited September 5
    Only to be expected under the circumstances, I guess.

    Whilst on the subject, are there (or have there been) any street funiculars anywhere else in the world? There was one near Porto, but it was freight-only.
    Wouldn't the San Francisco cable cars be related? (Wiki)

    ETA: Ah, Wiki sez: "Cable cars are distinct from funiculars, where the cars are permanently attached to the cable." - Learnt something new there! :)
  • Obviously we don't know what happened. Having read most of the recent UK railway accident reports, I'm inclined to speculate that some sort of clamp holding the car to the cable developed a hairline crack which - invisible to the naked eye even on inspection - slowly propagated over a period of time until it finally broke. If I'm right (and I may not be) only ultrasonic testing would have detected this - and who'd think of doing that on a slow-moving funicular? My explanation does however raise the question of redundancy: i.e. the failure of one crucial part should not be catastrophic.

    I would have expected that the car would have some sort of (probably sacrificial) emergency brake that would stop the car in the case of a cable failure.
  • Wesley J wrote: »
    Only to be expected under the circumstances, I guess.

    Whilst on the subject, are there (or have there been) any street funiculars anywhere else in the world? There was one near Porto, but it was freight-only.
    Wouldn't the San Francisco cable cars be related? (Wiki)

    ETA: Ah, Wiki sez: "Cable cars are distinct from funiculars, where the cars are permanently attached to the cable." - Learnt something new there! :)

    Just so - cable trams can be operated independently, so to speak.
  • Obviously we don't know what happened. Having read most of the recent UK railway accident reports, I'm inclined to speculate that some sort of clamp holding the car to the cable developed a hairline crack which - invisible to the naked eye even on inspection - slowly propagated over a period of time until it finally broke. If I'm right (and I may not be) only ultrasonic testing would have detected this - and who'd think of doing that on a slow-moving funicular? My explanation does however raise the question of redundancy: i.e. the failure of one crucial part should not be catastrophic.

    I would have expected that the car would have some sort of (probably sacrificial) emergency brake that would stop the car in the case of a cable failure.

    So would I. However someone is Lisbon (I can't find the relevant item anymore) said, more or less, that it didn't have the safety systems that are usual today because it was "a technological dinosaur". The publication of initial lines of enquiry, expected yesterday, has been put off until today. Both cars, including the intact one, have been taken away for examination.

    What one does notice is the fragility of the bodywork, which simply disintegrated. Much the same happened to a runaway Lisbon tram some years ago (I think it was empty at the time) - these, apart from the newer articulated cars, have old bodywork but modern "works". Compare the pictures of the Lisbon crash to the Croydon one - also terrible, but the actual vehicle remained intact.
  • I've since discovered that the cars, which look very old, were actually built by a German firm in 1957. Whether the mechanical side of things was upgraded at that time, I don't know.

    What's interesting and unusual about the Gloria funicular is that it wasn't water-balanced nor driven by an electric motor at one of the stations. It was more like a tram, with each car actually powered although linked by the cable. I know that, when it was ready to leave, lights flashed and a bell rang: what I don't know is whether the "downhill" car pulled the "uphill" one (or v-v), or whether they both ran with power and, if so, were controlled individually or by one controller alone.
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    edited September 6
    By accident (sic!), I found this strange little gem of a film: Gospel singer and renowned guitar player, Sister Rosetta Thorpe, at the then disused Chorlton railway station, in the UK!

    More from ITV:
    On May the 7th 1964 an historic concert was filmed by Granada Television at the former Wilbraham Road train station in Chorlton. Muddy Waters and Sister Rosetta Tharpe were among the stars who performed in front of a live audience.

    Perhaps not as impressive as a South African 60cm-gauge Garrett, but she's clearly on the right track (or platform), and steaming along very nicely indeed.
  • Wesley J wrote: »
    By accident (sic!), I found this strange little gem of a film: Gospel singer and renowned guitar player, Sister Rosetta Thorpe, at the then disused Chorlton railway station, in the UK!

    More from ITV:
    On May the 7th 1964 an historic concert was filmed by Granada Television at the former Wilbraham Road train station in Chorlton. Muddy Waters and Sister Rosetta Tharpe were among the stars who performed in front of a live audience.

    Perhaps not as impressive as a South African 60cm-gauge Garrett, but she's clearly on the right track (or platform), and steaming along very nicely indeed.

    Wilbraham Road (formerly Alexandra Park) was on the Great Central's Fairfield to Chorlton Junction line, part of the Manchester Central Station Railway which gave the GC access to Manchester (Central) and improved access to the CLC.

    The intermediate stations were rather fine, and although closed to passengers in 1958, they survived intact for many years afterwards. The street-level buildings at Fallowfield are still there (in part), although a large chunk was demolished to improve access to a supermarket. The street-level buildings at Levenshulme (aka Levenshulme South) have been superbly restored and are now in use as a cafe, Station South. I recommend a visit to anyone visiting Manchester. (The high-frequency 192 bus stops outside.) If only to see the glorious interior with its parquet floor. One can only weep when considering the bus stop stations of today.
  • Rapido is at it again. The messages poured in this morning - three of them, anyway - about their Highland Railway 'Loch'. I can't imagine a huge market for it. Fortunately I already have one; an old, half decent DJH version that came in a job lot of mostly HR models a long time ago.
  • They'll be offering a Skye Bogie next ...
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited September 9
    They'll be offering a Skye Bogie next ...

    One can but hope...they're always open to suggestions!
    :wink:

    My Rapido O1 is on its way from a certain northern retailer. In line with the general south-country light railway theme of my little diorama layouts - various stations and periods on the Suffix Border Railway - it's in plain black with the very early British Railways lettering. The SBR has it on hire, Captain Parsley (Owner) and Sergeant Sage (Operating Superintendent) having managed to bag it ex-works.

    The *what if?* version in fictional blue (to match the Bluebell Railway's P Bluebell looks stunning, and I would guess will be very popular. The Rapido Loch may be something of a niche model, but their offerings are usually so good as to be difficult to resist.

    I hope my other two Rapido pre-orders arrive this year...
  • What I think (as a non-modeller) would be worth producing are some "modern" LNWR locos such as a "George" or a "Claughton". I think they'd sell well. And does anyone do an unrebuilt "Scot"?
  • Not sure about the Scot, but yes, the later LNWR top-link engines might well prove popular.

    I see that another smallish manufacturer - Ellis Clark - is planning to release O and OO versions of the L & Y *Pug*, first produced way back in the last century by Kitmaster (price 2 shillings IIRC!). The kit was, of course, not motorised, but a chassis/motor to make it go came onto the market soon after.
  • They'll be offering a Skye Bogie next ...

    That would be my undoing. Again...

    Anent the unrebuilt 'Royal Scot', there was the Mainline 00 scale version some years ago. Did that become Bachmann? A friend has a kit-built Claughton - indeed a fine looking locomotive that I admire.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited September 9
    They'll be offering a Skye Bogie next ...

    That would be my undoing. Again...

    Anent the unrebuilt 'Royal Scot', there was the Mainline 00 scale version some years ago. Did that become Bachmann? A friend has a kit-built Claughton - indeed a fine looking locomotive that I admire.

    Yes, the unrebuilt Scot was taken on by Bachmann:

    https://www.hattons.co.uk/63343/bachmann_branchline_31_277_unrebuilt_royal_scot_class_4_6_0_6112_sherwood_forrester_in_lms_crimson_with_fow/stockdetail

    I don't know if it's still in production - that's an old advert (and I think they speeled the name wrong), but there are used examples on eBay.

    I'd like Rapido to produce the lovely little Highland Railway 0-4-4Ts which ended up in BR days working the Dornoch Light Railway. That, of course, would be even more of a niche market, though there's a delightful colour photo in H A Vallance's book The Highland Railway of 55053 at Dornoch station. The engine is immaculate in lined BR black, the coach is in blood-and-custard, and Dornoch Cathedral is visible in the background...

    Come to think of it, the Dornoch line in its later years used the HR 0-4-4Ts, BR standard 78000 2-6-0s, and GWR pannier tanks - not all at the same time, of course! Modelling the main line junction at The Mound would allow you to employ LMS Black 5s, various ex-HR engines, such as the Loch and/or the Jones Goods...
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    edited September 9
    What I think (as a non-modeller) would be worth producing are some "modern" LNWR locos such as a "George" or a "Claughton". I think they'd sell well. And does anyone do an unrebuilt "Scot"?

    I think they’ll come - the LNWR is having a moment…

    Bachmann did a Precedent, then the Hattons Genesis coaches in LNWR livery sold out on pre-order, then Rails is doing LNWR generic bogie coaches, and now Bachmann’s actual LNWRs are out (I think)

    So a Claughton or George V (or both) is presumably shortly to be amongst the snow on the growing, rolling, LNWR snowball.
  • Maybe, and the various coaches look good - but O! the prices...
    :scream:
  • Whilst on the subject, are there (or have there been) any street funiculars anywhere else in the world? There was one near Porto, but it was freight-only.

    The Great Orme Tramway in Llandudno is a funicular, and the lower half is mostly street running.
  • The Funiculare Centrale in Naples (not Florida) and the Duquesne Incline in Pittsburgh are still going
  • Thanks @Marvin the Martian - I really should have thought of the Great Orme line myself, having travelled on it some years ago...

    Thanks @Sojourner - those lines are new to me!
  • That Highland 4-4-0 is severely testing my self-imposed guidelines.

    I did say that after the 'funny' engines already owned or ordered, I'd not have anything in 4mm but GCR. Hmm, can I stick to that resolution?

    I dream of a Valour, a Sam Fay, a Jersey Lily and above all a Q4 in fully lined black. One can but dream...
  • O, go on - you know you want that Highland 4-4-0, and that nothing else can assuage that longing...
    :naughty:
  • Good grief - and again! This morning we have the GNoSR Cass V from Rapido and its SECR G class clone, so now we have all the preserved 1960s group of Scottish locomotives. Many of us are facing financial ruin.
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