September book discussion: Jack, by Marilynne Robinson
Our September book for discussion is Jack, by Marilynne Robinson. It's the last book in her Gilead quartet.
It's not necessary to have read the other books, as they are all standalone books about the same characters/community, and they are not in chronological order. We actually discussed Robinson's book, Home (also about Jack, but from the perspective of his sister Glory), back in April 2016, on the old Ship, so if you're curious to see that discussion, go here.
There is a Guardian review of Jack here, which I found interesting- it views it as a Calvinist romance.
I will post some questions on 20th September. Apologies for the delay in posting this thread - I was back at work this week after the summer break, and everything else momentarily slipped my mind!
It's not necessary to have read the other books, as they are all standalone books about the same characters/community, and they are not in chronological order. We actually discussed Robinson's book, Home (also about Jack, but from the perspective of his sister Glory), back in April 2016, on the old Ship, so if you're curious to see that discussion, go here.
There is a Guardian review of Jack here, which I found interesting- it views it as a Calvinist romance.
I will post some questions on 20th September. Apologies for the delay in posting this thread - I was back at work this week after the summer break, and everything else momentarily slipped my mind!
Comments
I actually didn't warm to Jack in the way I warmed to Home, though I found it interesting and enjoyable once I accepted it was very different in style, and stopped expecting it to be different. I've found each of these books very different from each other.
Home and Jack are my favourites of the four, because I am so intrigued by the character of Jack.
1. How did it feel being in Jack's mind? Did you feel you had a sense of him as a person? Did your impression of him change over the course of the novel?
2. What did you think of the long conversation between Jack and Della in the graveyard overnight? What was its purpose in the novel? Was the setting significant?
3. How well did you feel you understood Della, given that we see her from Jack's perspective? What were your thoughts about her?
4. What do you think attracted Della to Jack?
5. What do you think attracted Jack to Della?
6. How did you see the role of Della's family and Jack's family, and their influences on Della and Jack?
7. Have you read any other books in the Gilead quartet? If so, did this one, being the first time we are in Jack's mind, surprise you in any way? Did you feel you could recognise Jack, having only seen him from other perspectives, or did he seem like a different person?
8. How did you see the role of church in the novel? Why do you think Jack is drawn to go to a church, to talk to the pastor?
9. In Gilead, Jack asks John Ames 'Do you think some people are intentionally and irretrievably consigned to perdition?' How does the novel Jack explore this question?
10. Did you enjoy the novel? Was there anything in particular that struck you as interesting or surprising?
Feel free to add any discussion questions of your own.
1. How did it feel being in Jack's mind? Did you feel you had a sense of him as a person? Did your impression of him change over the course of the novel?
I found I wasn't really getting much sense of his emotions. I know from the other books that he has strong emotions, but I wasn't really getting a sense of them from his perspective. He was expressing mild awkwardness and a lot of second guessing, but it seemed a bit detached. Maybe a kind of dissociation, or a rationalisation.
2. What did you think of the long conversation between Jack and Della in the graveyard overnight? What was its purpose in the novel? Was the setting significant?
I really liked the idea of this long night time chat, the idea that at night, where they are hidden away, they can be real and vulnerable with each other. Though the conversation felt kind of artificial, with Jack focused on cleverness and theory, so it didn't have the rawness and depth I was expecting.
3. How well did you feel you understood Della, given that we see her from Jack's perspective? What were your thoughts about her?
I got the sense that she was a strong person with a deeply secure sense of self and her own mind. A bit too perfect to be true, but of course, we are seeing her through Jack's eyes.
4. What do you think attracted Della to Jack?
I am not entirely surely sure, and part of me was wondering if she was a bit of a rescuer, but she didn't seem to show any signs of that. Perhaps it is partly because Jack also knows his own mind - he insists on being true to what he understands, rather than pretending to believe. So he is different from the guys she normally meets, and of course they are both children of preachers, and while she is the model child, he is the opposite, and perhaps a bit of a sense of rebellion drives her as well.
5. What do you think attracted Jack to Della?
I am thinking part of it is that she is so securely her own person, and she seems a very still person. He is used to people reacting to him - whether in pity or disgust or anger. Whenever we were seeing another's perspective of him, there was a lot of reaction. A lot of tiptoeing round him. And here is someone who just casually takes him as he is, and is also a preacher's child, so is aware of the pressures of that. But I did get the sense that Jack loved Della for how she made him see himself, feel about himself, and I didn't so much get an impression of what he liked about her as an individual herself.
6. How did you see the role of Della's family and Jack's family, and their influences on Della and Jack?
I asked this because to me both families seemed very prominent in the novel. Even though Jack has moved away from his, he is always hearing his dad's words in his head, having all sorts of memories of his dad and siblings, and how they see him. I thought it was interesting that Jack hadn't specifically done anything that his family had told him not to - he just wasn't the person they had hoped for, he didn't have the beliefs they wanted him to have. His family were always aware this wasn't something he could help. But with Della, she is the person her family expects and wants, they are very proud of her. It is a very specific choice she makes, that is laid out before her, with clear expectations - to be with Jack - that they aren't happy with. Unlike Jack, she could choose a course of action to stay within her family's approval.
7. Have you read any other books in the Gilead quartet? If so, did this one, being the first time we are in Jack's mind, surprise you in any way? Did you feel you could recognise Jack, having only seen him from other perspectives, or did he seem like a different person?
I've read them all except Lila. I did feel it was very different being in Jack's mind, almost a kind of anticlimax, because from other perspectives, he seemed more raw and immediate, with deep inner conflict, and strong emotion, and he seems kind of muted and distanced from his own perspective.
8. How did you see the role of church in the novel? Why do you think Jack is drawn to go to a church, to talk to the pastor?
I did find it interesting that Jack clearly doesn't shade the faith of his family, and has moved away to make his own life, but he is still drawn to a church. And also drawn to a preacher's daughter. And to the graveyard of a church, and to church music. It felt like there was some kind of yearning, not necessarily for God or faith, but to understand the insistution that had been such a major part of his upbringing. To find some kind of place in it.
9. In Gilead, Jack asks John Ames 'Do you think some people are intentionally and irretrievably consigned to perdition?' How does the novel Jack explore this question?
I am not sure, just as I'm not entirely sure how this is a Calvinist novel. There does seem to be the idea that Jack simply is who he is - the idea that he's someone who just intrinsically does 'bad' things, like lie and steal and generally harm people, and he doesn't know why, and he doesn't want to, but it's simply who he is. I have found this aspect of the quartet a bit problematic- it is to the point where it feels more like myth than realism to me. Particularly as the glimpse inside his mind doesn't seem to elucidate at all.
10. Did you enjoy the novel? Was there anything in particular that struck you as interesting or surprising?
I enjoyed it. It leaves me with more questions than answers, which I see as a good thing, and was also why I wanted to make it a book group book, to see what other people made of it.
1. How did it feel being in Jack's mind? Did you feel you had a sense of him as a person? Did your impression of him change over the course of the novel?
I haven't read the other novels in the series, so have not seen Jack from other characters' perspectives. I did get some sense of him as a person. His character was written very realistically, especially when he had anxieties. Although my personality and life choices are very different than Jack's, I do suffer from mild to moderate anxiety, which worsens at times, and I felt anxious just reading about his anxieties and decision making processes.
His attempts to explain to himself his anti-social choices were interesting, but I am curious to know if impulsive people like Jack really have that much insight into their actions. People can change, however, especially with age and wisdom and by the end of the book I had more hope Jack could turn his life around.
His relationship with Della added problems to his life and I worry that their love would be enough to ensure he didn't slip into old ways. I also was concerned how he would cope with parenthood, especially as he abandoned his first child. Thankfully they are fictional characters, but the author really did make me concerned for their futures!
2. What did you think of the long conversation between Jack and Della in the graveyard overnight? What was its purpose in the novel? Was the setting significant?
I found it hard to focus on their conversation as sometimes it lost my interest, but mostly because I kept being afraid Della was going to get into serious trouble for being there, either by the guard or by losing her job at the school.
The night was significant as it reunited the characters after their initial falling out and was probably when they fell fully in love with each other.
I'm sure there is a lot of symbolism in the graveyard setting and that it was a place Della was forbidden to be in at all, but I didn't read this part closely enough to go deeper.
4. What do you think attracted Della to Jack?
At times in the novel I couldn't see Jack's attraction at all, but he did seem quite charming and physically attractive in a rough diamond way. She didn't know all the details of his past (stealing, jail time, abandoning his girlfriend and child) and was willing to overlook the faults she was aware of.
Plenty of stable, caring people fall in love with people who have addictions and criminal tendencies. It was interesting that she saw it as a meeting of two souls and that this overcame limitations based on Jack's waywardness and their relationship being illegal at the time for her.
5. What do you think attracted Jack to Della?
Initially Jack was attracted by Della's looks and charms, but I think his feelings deepened due to their shared love of poetry and that she was so steadfast in pursuing him even when he tried to break things off. She was kind and caring and less judgemental than most people in his life. Her belief that they were soulmates may have rubbed off on him too.
8. How did you see the role of church in the novel? Why do you think Jack is drawn to go to a church, to talk to the pastor?
Growing up attending church and in very religious families shaped Jack and Della's beliefs and worldview. Even though Jack claimed to have no faith he did still seem to question what would happen to him after death and had some faith in the pastor at the church in St Louis to help him and perhaps save his soul. Like Della, he still seemed to believe people were more than just their body and mind.
The story was find being told for his point of view. He did reveal himself over time and I grew to like him more as time progressed. I am not convinced he was a reliable narrator.
2. What did you think of the long conversation between Jack and Della in the graveyard overnight? What was its purpose in the novel? Was the setting significant?
It was interminable. I feared this would be the essence of the whole story. I assume the purpose was to reveal aspects of the two characters. The setting did have connotations of death and rebirth.
3. How well did you feel you understood Della, given that we see her from Jack's perspective? What were your thoughts about her?
I thought Della was trying to find her own way in life and didn’t quite fit the conservative ethos of her family. She found the Jim Crow laws and ban on miscegenation to be restrictive.
4. What do you think attracted Della to Jack?
The fact that he seemed different from the world she came from but still had connections to a church.
5. What do you think attracted Jack to Della?
Her love of literature. Her vibrant personality.
6. How did you see the role of Della's family and Jack's family, and their influences on Della and Jack?
Both in their own way were trying to escape from their families. It was tougher for her given gendered roles at the time.
7. Have you read any other books in the Gilead quartet? If so, did this one, being the first time we are in Jack's mind, surprise you in any way? Did you feel you could recognise Jack, having only seen him from other perspectives, or did he seem like a different person?
No
8. How did you see the role of church in the novel? Why do you think Jack is drawn to go to a church, to talk to the pastor?
The Church was an important structure in the black community in that time period. It was clearly divided between separatists and those of an integrative civil rights bent. As the son of a minister it was an obvious place for jack to turn.
9. In Gilead, Jack asks John Ames 'Do you think some people are intentionally and irretrievably consigned to perdition?' How does the novel Jack explore this question?
I have not given it much thought.
10. Did you enjoy the novel? Was there anything in particular that struck you as interesting or surprising?
I enjoyed it after we got out of the cemetery. ;^)
Jack is by far my favourite character in the Gilead "series" (I know it's not really a series), and Home is my favourite of the four books. I was really looking forward to Jack, and I did enjoy it a lot (I do remember the graveyard conversation feeling a bit interminable though). But I did find that same detachment that @fineline mentions -- I was never quite as much in Jack's head as I wanted to be.
I think the question of predestination is very important to this novel, as I believe to some extent it is to all Robinson's work. But I'm not sure she is the kind of Calvinist who believes people are predestined to be damned. I think she believes in grace. Everyone, including Jack himself, seems to believe at various points that he is "intentionally and irretrievably consigned to perdition?" (though I think Ames doubts this), but the point of Jack's story in the books seems to me to be a refutation of this, to suggest that though he is the assigned "black sheep" of the family and has embraced this role, he is in fact capable of both receiving and giving grace and love. So even if Jack sees himself as consigned to perdition, the author seems to be suggesting that he is not.
As I mentioned above, I find the timeline of these novels interesting, as Gilead and Home are more or less concurrent, and then Lila and Jack both tell different parts of the backstory that happens before the first two novels. Now here's where my memory may be hazy, and I'm going to spoiler tag this bit for the benefit of anyone who hasn't read Gilead and Home but is interested in doing so after reading this one.
If I'm remembering right, Jack also ends with Jack leaving Della, at an earlier stage in their relationship, and then going back to her. But as we read this in Jack, if we've read the other books, we know that he will leave her again, and we don't know what the outcome of that second separation will be. When I read Jack, I read the ending as hopeful for that later separation that we read about in Home -- we see him coming back to her (and perhaps back to his better self) at the end of one book, and have reason to hope he will do so again, after the events of Home.
I'm not sure if anyone else read it that way, but would like to know, from anyone else who's read all four books.