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The (Putin) Kiss of Death

Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
in Purgatory
Pirgozhin appears to have been taken out. Wagner social media claims someone shot his plane down. Now who would benefit the most from such action.

Meanwhile the General of the Russian Air Force has disappeared. Some say he was a close ally of Pirgozhin.

And there are others who have felt Putin's lips.

I wonder who's next.

Comments

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    From this BBC report it does seem that all the passengers were senior Wagner personnel, or their close protection.

    The situation with the crew is unclear.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    A game going around. Called "When in Russia.."

    Entries so far:

    When in Russia,
    - Stay off bridges
    - Get someone to taste your food
    - No rock concerts
    - Travel only by train in a sealed car
    - Stay away from windows higher than three stories
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Pirgozhin appears to have been taken out. Wagner social media claims someone shot his plane down.

    I'd like to know more about this "Wagner social media". Is it just a bunch of anonymous randos cheering on Wagner from their armchairs? Or is there some reason to think they have formal connections with the organization?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Pirgozhin appears to have been taken out. Wagner social media claims someone shot his plane down.

    I'd like to know more about this "Wagner social media". Is it just a bunch of anonymous randos cheering on Wagner from their armchairs? Or is there some reason to think they have formal connections with the organization?

    CNN has this report.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Pirgozhin appears to have been taken out. Wagner social media claims someone shot his plane down.

    I'd like to know more about this "Wagner social media". Is it just a bunch of anonymous randos cheering on Wagner from their armchairs? Or is there some reason to think they have formal connections with the organization?

    CNN has this report.

    Thanks. But the article doesn't say for certain whether or not the media is legit and, in fact, takes an openly agnostic position on the question.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    According to The Guardian, the missile theory has been shot down(*)), with the NYT and unspecified "US officials" saying it was an on-board explosion.

    (*) I'll get my coat.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    There is a distinct lack of gloating in Putin’s statement - he’s treading carefully.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Doublethink wrote: »
    There is a distinct lack of gloating in Putin’s statement - he’s treading carefully.

    The fact that he has to tread so carefully is one of the reasons I maintain a modicum of skepticism as to his involvement.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    Video of plane crash from CNN last night: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Video+of+Pirgozhin+plane+being+shot+down&docid=14013961375890&mid=2C0D1E875E6972830DF42C0D1E875E6972830DF4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    The US Defense Department says there’s no indication the plane was shot down by surface to air missile, which leaves artillery, or another plane - if it was shot dry own.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    There seems to have been an explosion of some kind that destroyed a wing and maybe an engine.

    No matter, the man and some of his henchmen are gone. Will have to wait to see what happens.

    Note to stetson. CNN also says Wagner Social Media accounts have also appeared on Telegram.

    I am just going to have to take them at their word. I am not going to look under the chassis as it were.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Of course Putin’s people could have planted a bomb as mentioned or in some other way messed with plane.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Whatever happened, it does seem highly likely that Putin is ultimately responsible (though he may simply have dropped a hint to one of his henchmen).

    It makes sense (if I can use that word in this context) for Putin not to be too upfront about it, of course. Evil he may be, but he's not entirely stupid.
  • DardaDarda Shipmate
    As in "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest Wagner boss?"
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    edited August 2023
    AIUI Hitler's management method was to issue a lot of vague and contradictory hints as to what should be done, send his subordinates to scurry away to compete over how to interpret them, and then take credit for the outcomes he liked and blame the subordinates for the ones that he didn't.
    I could believe Putin uses the same method.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Darda wrote: »
    As in "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest Wagner boss?"
    Dafyd wrote: »
    AIUI Hitler's management method was to issue a lot of vague and contradictory hints as to what should be done, send his subordinates to scurry away to compete over how to interpret them, and then take credit for the outcomes he liked and blame the subordinates for the ones that he didn't.
    I could believe Putin uses the same method.

    My thoughts exactly.

  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    "I meant shoot down his ARGUMENTS!"
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    As The Economist says - surely Prighozin should have expected this? Why did he call off his mutiny when he must have known his chances of survival afterwards were slim? Did he really think Putin would cut a true deal with him?
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    I'd imagine both of them were busy working out ways to double-cross each other.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    I'm cynical enough to think that maybe Prighozin wasn't on the plane, and is plotting deeply, somewhere very secret and secure...

    Quite why this might be so, I haven't yet thought out, but, given that the bodies recovered from the plane seem to be unrecognisable, it might not be too difficult to disguise the fact that he wasn't there.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    I'm cynical enough to think that maybe Prighozin wasn't on the plane, and is plotting deeply, somewhere very secret and secure...

    It sounds crazy, except for the fact that Prigozhin was presumed killed in a plane crash in 2019 in Congo only to turn up alive a few days later.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Well, well. I didn't know that, but it lends credence to my overheated imaginings, perhaps...
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Interesting article about the mysterious deaths and close calls of Putin's opponents
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Russian investigators have confirmed that Prigozhin's body is among those recovered:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/27/wagner-boss-yevgeny-prigozhin-killed-in-plane-crash-russia-investigative-committee-confirms

    What will happen to Wagner now, I wonder?

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    Russian investigators have confirmed that Prigozhin's body is among those recovered:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/27/wagner-boss-yevgeny-prigozhin-killed-in-plane-crash-russia-investigative-committee-confirms

    What will happen to Wagner now, I wonder?

    I'm trying to imagine the perspective of a Wagner mercenary who is working in Africa, IOW a Russian living in an overseas conflict zone under the protection of his own government, who is now being asked to sign an oath of loyalty to the man widely believed to have murdered his boss.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    Russian investigators have confirmed that Prigozhin's body is among those recovered:
    I must admit that there’s a part of me that is skeptical of any information like this that comes from an instrument of the Russian government.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    Russian investigators have confirmed that Prigozhin's body is among those recovered:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/27/wagner-boss-yevgeny-prigozhin-killed-in-plane-crash-russia-investigative-committee-confirms

    What will happen to Wagner now, I wonder?

    I'm trying to imagine the perspective of a Wagner mercenary who is working in Africa, IOW a Russian living in an overseas conflict zone under the protection of his own government, who is now being asked to sign an oath of loyalty to the man widely believed to have murdered his boss.

    I could imagine a lot of Wagner mercenaries going freelance. Tom Clancy, if he were alive, would have a whole new series on them.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    Russian investigators have confirmed that Prigozhin's body is among those recovered:
    I must admit that there’s a part of me that is skeptical of any information like this that comes from an instrument of the Russian government.

    Yes, I thought that...independent corroboration would be good, albeit unlikely.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I saw "The A-Team" so I know that most freelance mercenaries go around helping mom-and-pop stores fight off evil property developers and suchlike. Yay!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    TurquoiseTastic wrote: »
    I saw "The A-Team" so I know that most freelance mercenaries go around helping mom-and-pop stores fight off evil property developers and suchlike. Yay!

    You are dating yourself, TT.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I could imagine a lot of Wagner mercenaries going freelance.

    But would they sign the loyalty oath, and then quit? Or just not sign it at all and leave the company that way?

    If you're in a conflict-zone, and you want to make a smooth exit out before going freelance, I'd imagine it helps to have the entirely enthusiastic assistance of your nation's foreign-service staff. Which I'm guessing you might not get if you publically rebuke Putin by quitting his team in a prized Russian sphere-of-influence. So, best to sign.

    But, having thus signed, can you then just go back to Russia and quit there?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    There is no guarantee that the Russian foreign service will welcome Wagner soldiers with open arms, since a group of them did march on Moscow. I would think the ones that marched on Moscow would be looking over their shoulder, waiting for the next shoe to drop. A large group of Wagner Mercenaries came from Russian prisons. If they survived Bakhmut, why would Russia want them back?

    Russia is stretched so thin right now. I just don't think they would get much help from the motherland.

    On the other hand, there are any number of private mercenary armies out there. Most, I am told, are on the dark web. I did find one website, though, offering mercenary services. It is called Silent Professionals. I did not look further than that.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Well, here is a bit of good news, at least for the General. General Sergei Surovikin, who disappeared from the Russian Military leadership after the Wagner mutiny, was sighted with his wife in a Moscow park on Sunday.

    He was in civvies, holding hands with wife.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Ha! A body-double, no doubt, with another body-double acting as Mrs S...

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Has another of Putin's allies disappeared? Ramzan Kadyrov, the Chechen warlord who supplied a number of his fighters to Ukraine, has not been seen or heard from for a while. Rumors said he had kidney failure or heart failure. The Russians are saying they know nothing.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Looks like the Putin kiss of death has gone to another level with him officially withdrawing Russia from the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. I wonder where this is going.

    I do note, all the sudden American news outlets have been talking about nuclear winter. Could this be related.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Looks like the Putin kiss of death has gone to another level with him officially withdrawing Russia from the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. I wonder where this is going.

    I do note, all the sudden American news outlets have been talking about nuclear winter. Could this be related.

    Links?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    To what? Just because you had an involuntary shore leave, Martin, did you stop reading the papers or listening to BBC or reviewing online news?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/03/vladimir-putin-withdraws-russia-ratification-nuclear-test-ban-treaty-criticism
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    What about it? Where's the nuclear winter?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Well, here are two reports I heard on Friday. https://www.sciencefriday.com/episodes/november-3-2023/
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    I count one on a website. Anything on broadcast news? Fox? Any of the other Russian propaganda stations?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I count one on a website. Anything on broadcast news? Fox? Any of the other Russian propaganda stations?

    Those were two audio reports on the American National Public Radio. You probably have better access to Russia Today.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    So no all the sudden American TV news outlets at all.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    @Martin54 you’re misunderstanding Gramps49’s idiom. Standard UK idiom would be “all of a sudden”.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    @Martin54 you’re misunderstanding Gramps49’s idiom. Standard UK idiom would be “all of a sudden”.
    Standard US idiom is also “all of a sudden.” I’ve never heard “all the sudden,” and assumed it was a typo.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    And Putin has now pulled out of the conventional forces treaty.

    This means he can choose to camp his soldiers within minutes of the NATO boarders now.

    But I think he remains a little tied up in other places.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Maybe this is old hat. Alexander Navalny's death is quite suspicious. He is seen on a video the day before he died joking with a guard and a judge during a (sham) trial. Next day he drops dead from Sudden Death Syndrome. The government has yet to release the body to the family but there are reports it has extensive bruises.

    If there is a hell, I hope Putin will end up in eternal torment being beat up.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    If there's a heaven, Putin will be initially tormented by Navalny's grace.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I was reading a Stalin biography which commented that Stalin saw death as the normal solution to all problems. "No man, no problem". His legacy continues.
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